PakPassion.net had the please of catching up with former Australian fast bowler and ex-coach of the Pakistan team Geoff Lawson. In an in-depth interview, Lawson gives his take on the current Pakistan side, Shahid Afridi's resignation from the Test captaincy, and Pakistani cricket itself.

PakPassion.Net: Absolutely delighted to have former Pakistan coach and Australian fast bowler, Geoff Lawson with me here at Headingley. Geoff, what have you been up to? Last time, I saw you, we were at the T20 world cup in 2009 – which Pakistan won and both of us were grinning away.

Geoff Lawson: Yeah, it was a great time and they played some excellent T20 cricket. The win at Lord’s did have all of us smiling. I have been tied up with the media in Australia and have been doing radio commentary on the series that was happening in Australia during our summer. I have also been to India a couple of times for coaching with the Global Cricket School there – an organization I work for. I also had the pleasure of coaching a junior team in the Maharashtra Cricket league – which was a T20 league with young talents from around the nation. The idea was to get players into the IPL through this league.

It’s been pretty busy for me. All of the media work, coaching sessions in India and work at the University of New South Wales have taken over my life. I tend to lead a varied life, so that’s a good thing to have.

PakPassion.Net: Over here you have been doing some radio commentary – I heard you over Radio 5 live, last night. I was impressed with your, “Asalaamu Alaikum” [Peace be upon you]. 

Geoff Lawson: [Chuckles] Yes, I have to keep up with my Urdu/Hindi. Having been in India a couple of months ago has been good for that. When you go back home to Australia – you are obviously speaking English all of the time. When you are in India/Pakistan, you end up picking normal bits of conversation over time. Once you are around the players and they speak a bit of the language – you tend to want to keep up to date. All of these Englishmen with their accents need help with the language as well.

PakPassion.Net: Geoff, you must have mixed feelings – who do you actually support during the course of this series?

Geoff Lawson: Well, the first thing you have to look for is competitive cricket. I don’t want to see a boring series, poor pitches and bad cricket. I have a lot of sympathies with the Pakistani cricketers and I know a lot of the guys, particularly Salman Butt. I spent a lot of time with him – he was originally the vice captain during the T20 world cup. Obviously, the board back then saw something in him and he is certainly an intelligent guy. They all have played cricket under me. Plus, besides that – they are all my friends off the cricket pitch. Recently, I had dinner with the lads in London during the Lord’s test. It’s just like old friends meeting, that’s what cricket does to you. It’s not initially about playing the game – it’s about the people you meet and I have got to say the lads are extremely friendly and I found it terrific to catch up.

Australia won the first test; it would be nice to see Pakistan win the second one. I would like a tight series and for it to go down to the wire.

PakPassion.Net: How do you think this test is going? 258 all out on this pitch and a healthy lead of 170[this was the situation during the interview].

Geoff Lawson: Well, it’s a typical Headingley Test match where it’s been low scoring. There have been overcast conditions even as we speak. I have got to say that Pakistan have completely out bowled Australia in this test match. The difference in the score indicates that. The Pakistani seam bowling was outstanding and Australia couldn’t quite match it. Obviously, they are not quite used to the conditions because the Aussies are used to running in hard and bouncing batsmen out. Pakistan has worked hard and deserves the lead at the moment, but they need to finish the test match. The Sydney Test was a little bit different and it did fall apart on the last day. It was not easy batting on that pitch at the end. Plus, this is a different pitch in comparison to that one and the whole atmosphere with the overcast conditions is different to Sydney.

PakPassion.Net: Do you think Pakistan can wrap up this Test match? Pakistan does tend to get stage fright when they get into such good positions, especially against Australia. 

Geoff Lawson: That is very true. I had a few text messages with Salman Butt and he felt they had a great day, yesterday. It’s great when your bowlers are knocking batsmen over, but the Aussies will never roll over – they will keep on fighting. You would not want to be chasing more than 150 on this pitch in the last innings. Which basically means the Aussies will have to get 320 and they are a long way off right now. Pakistan should be able to do it.

PakPassion.Net: Geoff, they say a week is a long time. However, in Pakistani cricket a week seems like an eternity. We have seen – since the T20 world cup, numerous captains, the chief selector come and go and all of the bans and controversies. Now, according to Shahid Afridi he felt he was pressurized into the captaincy. How do you feel about the way he handled it? He basically gave the captaincy up after one Test.

Geoff Lawson: It seems like typical Pakistani cricket. Well, Shahid Afridi is a senior player and he has done outstandingly well in ODI and T20 cricket, but he hasn’t played test cricket for a while. Look, I always thought he had ambitions to captain the Test side, I don’t know how much he was “pressurized” into it. If someone offers you the captaincy of your nation’s test side, it’s almost impossible to knock it back. So, I would give him the benefit of the doubt in regards to being put under a bit of pressure. Plus, who else would want the captaincy given that they sack people right, left and center? Look at what they did to Younus Khan and Mohammad Yousuf – they banned them after they lost cricket games. Why would anyone want to be skipper? I am not surprised people want to sidestep the role.

Just looking at Shoaib Malik – I felt he was a reluctant captain as well back in 2007. He just wanted play his own role and he didn’t want all of the other pressures that came with captaincy. However, he is probably the senior player in the side – thus, he should be captain right now with Salman Butt as his vice captain. Unfortunately, this is not how it always works in Pakistani cricket. 

Shahid Afridi is not a good enough batsman or bowler to be in a Test side. We all saw what happened at Lord’s – his batting was borderline embarrassing and you just can’t get out like that. However, it takes a very brave man to come and say that he should not be captain because of his own temperament. I feel he should be patted on the back for that. It kind of shows that he left for the benefit of the team, which is excellent.

PakPassion.Net: Were you surprised that he only stuck it out for one match? Could he not have stuck it out for the Australia series before departing?

Geoff Lawson: I have to admit, I was not totally surprised. Anything can happen in Pakistani cricket. Given the way he was dismissed in both innings at Lord’s, it was a lesser surprise. Perhaps, if it happened with other countries, I would have been surprised – but, not with Pakistan.

PakPassion.Net: Moving on to a couple of names you have mentioned earlier in the interview, Mohammad Yousuf and Younus Khan. Both are two established senior cricketers with a wealth of experience. There is no surprise that both are being mentioned as possibly coming back into the side. How do you think that would affect the bonds? Do you think the team would be better off without both men in the side?

Geoff Lawson: Well, first thing to consider is that both players are brilliant test cricketers. This team could do with a number three or four batsman. The way the team is developing, beginning with Salman Butt who is becoming consistent – it’s starting to look good. Still, they need proper number three and four batsmen. It’s a load of rubbish to put youngsters at those spots and it defies all cricketing logic. Yet, Azhar Ali looks good enough to play for a long time, same goes for Umar Amin. However, playing both of the lads at the same time in those positions is just not on. 

It would be lovely to have Yousuf/Younus batting at number three. I know Mohammad Yousuf does not prefer batting at that number, but if you are the best batsman in the side – you should be batting at that spot. One of those guys back in this current team makes this a pretty solid unit. If both come into the side things become even better and the team grows in strength. 

Younus is a phenomenal contributor to the team as a player. Sure, when he became captain – things went a little crazy. However, just as a senior player – he is brilliant. Plus, just look at Younus’ age – he is just 32 years of age and has a good three/four years left in him. 

PakPassion.Net: You mentioned that Salman Butt has kept in touch with you and is a good friend. What do you think his strengths are as a captain?

Geoff Lawson: Well, he has only been captain for a day and a half as we speak. However, I have known him with my time around the squad. Look, he’s fairly quiet but has an excellent cricketing brain and is intelligent. He works hard on his game. The best part of Salman Butt is that he does not seek to be captain – he just wants to be a good player. I have a problem with those players that are solely after the captaincy and forget to play for the team. If captaincy comes upon you then it’s great – if it doesn’t keep on playing. Some are born greats and others have it thrust upon them – it seems he might be having it thrust upon him here. 

Look he’s already impressed people with his captaincy and it’s only been a little while since he’s begun. Not just with the things he’s done on the field – it includes the way he has handled the media. He speaks very well and gets his message across efficiently. He is a smart bloke, but how the team reacts to him under pressure will be interesting to watch. Plus, it will be interesting to watch how he reacts under the same pressure.

PakPassion.Net: Most countries around the world would give Salman Butt two/three years to establish himself as captain. However, with Pakistani cricket it seems we give them only two/three matches to establish themselves. How long do you think Salman Butt needs to establish his role both in terms of captaincy and how the players see him?

Geoff Lawson: He has one thing going for him – the team is young. A couple of rookies and there are guys like Imran Farhat, Shoaib Malik and Kamran Akmal who are youngish. There are no players at the moment that have played a whole heap of tests that might bother him. He has a lot of young talent at his disposal to make things work. He’s got some young, enthusiastic kids with him.

I can compare this to when Allan Border got the captaincy of Australia. He did not want it, the captaincy was thrust upon him. He just didn’t want to be captain. It probably took him five years to establish himself as captain. He remained in the side because he was such a brilliant batsman. His coming out tour was the 1989 Ashes tour, where he led the side quite well. With the way Salman Butt is playing – I think he will need 2/3 years as long as he maintains that consistency with the bat.

Salman is as level-headed a person as Pakistan has had in that position for a long time. He has got this calm demeanour that bodes well for the role. He never gets upset about things regardless of what’s happening. He seems to have all of the characteristics required for captaincy. 

PakPassion.Net: Geoff, moving on to Shoaib Malik. He never seems to have established himself in the Test side over the years. Do you think it’s time for him to establish himself in the Test side with the experienced players [Younus/Yousuf] not being in the team? Do you think he can establish himself as a Test player?

Geoff Lawson: I think he has to do it. As he was the captain during my tenure as coach, he got injured while playing soccer – which he was not good at. I always thought his cricket was improving with time, I certainly think he has what it takes to become a quality test batsman. In this side, I think he should be batting in front of Umar Amin. I think he has what it takes and he gets along really well with Salman Butt.

Shoaib Malik would have been a very good vice captain, but Kamran Akmal is good as well. Once again, he deserves an extended run to prove himself – perhaps 10 tests at least? 

For me, I think the Pakistan side is getting a good feel to it. Good young players coming in, sorting out the senior structure and I think Malik can be a big part of that. 

PakPassion.Net: We have all been watching the 18 year old, Mohammad Aamer. He is a fantastic talent, what are your thoughts on him? Any ideas on what he can improve upon in terms of his bowling?

Geoff Lawson: He has had a fantastic introduction to international cricket, hasn’t he? I saw him playing cricket when he was 15-16 a few years ago during his stint with the under-19 squad. 

He is doing just about everything right at the moment, there is nothing that requires tampering with. He bowls fast, he’s aggressive and he has an excellent cricketing brain. I think he will learn over time in terms of how to bowl on different pitches in different nations around the world.

It’s now up to David Dwyer to keep him fit and perhaps make him stronger. He will only get faster if that happens. The main goal should be to make sure that he does not break down as a teenager. He doesn’t do too much wrong, though.

PakPassion.Net: Now let’s talk about his opening bowling partner, Mohammad Asif. He has had his problems over the years and has been on/off in terms of playing with the team due to non-cricketing reasons. However, he looks like a very thoughtful bowler these days – what is your opinion about him?

Geoff Lawson: Well, you have to keep him completely away from bad company. He is a very nice young man, but the people who he mixes with should be kept away from him. When he is in the team, a good young squad at that – he is a wonderful addition.

Just look at that attack of Aamer, Asif and Gul – they form a very good unit. They should get even better over time as they gain experience. Asif will have to watch his fitness as they play more – he is a great talent as long as the off field stuff is minimized.

PakPassion.Net: Geoff, you mentioned the idea of continuity – how do you feel the off-field guys [selectors, coaches] can help this squad? What should they do?

Geoff Lawson: The biggest help would be for all of them to resign. They are absolutely dreadful. They have dismantled Pakistan cricket since Nasim Ashraf had to resign due to the new government. We have started seeing the disintegration of Pakistani cricket. Their regional system in terms of cricket is woeful and disappearing. They just need to get the broom through the administration and get new people in.

My advice to the chairman, “please resign right now”. Get some capable people in there.

PakPassion.Net: How do you feel about the influx of T20 cricket and the influence it’s having on Pakistani cricketers? Now, it seems the batsmen are starting to play T20 shots in Test matches. Do you think that playing too much T20 cricket will affect the batsmen in the side?

Geoff Lawson: There are specialists in the game because it takes a whole different temperament in this form of the game. Pakistan has been terrific in the T20 format and it’s fantastic that they have done so well in that format. It should be acknowledged that Pakistan is the best side in the world in terms of T20 cricket.

You have to switch your brain off, though and change your mental approach – when it comes to going into the test form of the game. You have to go out and find some specialists and create differences in terms of personnel in the T20 side and the Test side. You don’t want to lose that T20 success just for the sake of becoming better in Test cricket. The idea is to be good in both formats and that can only be done with specialists.

PakPassion.Net: Coming back to yourself, what are your plans for the rest of the summer and beyond?

Geoff Lawson: Well, it’s always terrific being involved with cricket somewhere. I have got some more coaching to do in England. I have some other work with ECB and more coaching sessions later on in the year within India. Plus, there are only a couple of months left until the Australia summer begins back home anyway.

PakPassion.Net: It was a pleasure speaking with you, today. Thank you for your time.