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  1. #1
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    Ben Stokes versus Ian Botham - Greatest England cricketer ever?

    Today, what I witnessed was an all-time classic. Ben Stokes did it for England what Ian Botham failed to do in 1992(27 years ago). Not just the player of the match but he pretty much was the man of the tournament for England.

    I will have Ben Stokes over Ian Botham.The man of this moment, arguably the greatest inning in ODI WC finals. Who would you pick between the two?

    Discuss!
    Last edited by Ab Fan; 15th July 2019 at 02:20.

  2. #2
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    Stokes has become an ODI legend for England, but Botham it too far ahead overall. However, if there is one all-rounder who can reach the stature of the big four of the 80's, it is Stokes. Incredible cricketer.

  3. #3
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    No. His bowling is still up in the air for me and it's dependant on if it's his day with the ball or not, unless you can include his fielding too then maybe.


    "When You Have Eliminated The Impossible, Whatever Remains, However Improbable, Must Be The Truth!

  4. #4
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    As I said many times, Stokes is the biggest match winner in the world. What a legend he is. This world cup show how good he is. Doesn't score in meaningless 370 scores, scores when it matters the most.

  5. #5
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    Yes, Stokes is a world champion and that's all that matters.

    Rings

    Stokes 1 - Botham 0

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Stokes has become an ODI legend for England, but Botham it too far ahead overall. However, if there is one all-rounder who can reach the stature of the big four of the 80's, it is Stokes. Incredible cricketer.
    And there is another all rounder who will reach Stokes level according to you!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    No. His bowling is still up in the air for me and it's dependant on if it's his day with the ball or not, unless you can include his fielding too then maybe.
    Lol sorry, I misread the title as greatest all-rounder...



    "When You Have Eliminated The Impossible, Whatever Remains, However Improbable, Must Be The Truth!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobashir View Post
    And there is another all rounder who will reach Stokes level according to you!
    Pandya has all the ability, but time will tell if he has the character. I personally think he does, and people who are doubting him now will be proved wrong like the ones who doubted Stokes.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Pandya has all the ability, but time will tell if he has the character. I personally think he does, and people who are doubting him now will be proved wrong like the ones who doubted Stokes.
    Lol, was just sliding you. Tought you had put this behind you but you are still believing it. It's either a) you don't understand cricket or b) your bias for India, and in your case, it's b).

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakistanian View Post
    Yes, Stokes is a world champion and that's all that matters.

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    Stokes 1 - Botham 0
    And dont forget me. Im a world cup winning fan

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobashir View Post
    Lol, was just sliding you. Tought you had put this behind you but you are still believing it. It's either a) you don't understand cricket or b) your bias for India, and in your case, it's b).
    The irony.

    If Pandya wasn't Indian, you would be singing a different tune.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matty View Post
    And dont forget me. Im a world cup winning fan
    Congratulations Matty.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    The irony.

    If Pandya wasn't Indian, you would be singing a different tune.
    I am talking facts; Stokes is one of the top cricketer in the world (for me, the biggest match winner) and your Pandya is a nobody so far.
    So comeback when Pandya does something of note or something to be mentioned alongside Stokes.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobashir View Post
    I am talking facts; Stokes is one of the top cricketer in the world (for me, the biggest match winner) and your Pandya is a nobody so far.
    So comeback when Pandya does something of note or something to be mentioned alongside Stokes.
    That is why I insist that give Pandya time to mature. Do you remember what people here used to say about Stokes? He was even compared to Anwar Ali at one point.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    The irony.

    If Pandya wasn't Indian, you would be singing a different tune.
    When Pandya wins such a match then yes but what a knock.Pandya had the same opportunity but he does not have in him.
    Ian was great crickter as a whole.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRsohail View Post
    When Pandya wins such a match then yes but what a knock.Pandya had the same opportunity but he does not have in him.
    Ian was great crickter as a whole.
    Obviously, I am not comparing Pandya to Botham. Even Stokes has a long way to go before he can reach his level.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    That is why I insist that give Pandya time to mature. Do you remember what people here used to say about Stokes? He was even compared to Anwar Ali at one point.
    Even without today's innings, Stokes was going to be a legendary player. And legendary the way I love them; not about the big numbers but always play the crucial part in games.

    Your cricket understanding is fine but you bias is stopping you to see the gulf of difference in the class of both players.

    I am ready to wait and see. So far, I am waiting for two year (CT17 final) and nothing has improved in Pandya.

    But too remain on topic, Stokes is the only true fast bowling all rounder in the world.

  18. #18
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    Only Freddie Flintofff had the chance to become better then Beefy had he not retired so early.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  19. #19
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    Stokes can't win a game with his bowling. So....

  20. #20
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    No .... Botham was their best all rounder ..... Stokes in ODIs is just a batsman who can bowl .That 's all . An avg: of almost 42 is too lower for being an all rounder. Even in this world cup his performance has been one among the best batting performances ever in a world cup.


  21. #21
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    Stokes, not even close to Botham. Botham had peaked much before 1992 final and prior to that he had won so many tests and ODI including ashes with his bowling and batting. One of the best cricketer ever to play the game. Stokes had a great game today but he is not even the best all rounder currently, that honor goes to Shakib.

  22. #22
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  23. #23
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    Stokes still isn’t the bowler Freddy or Beefy was. But definitely a superior batsman to both

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    Stokes has had an incredible year.


    Follow PakPassion on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram!

  25. #25
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    No discussion. Botham. Though he was not the best England cricketer either.

    Stokes has a big future as a Kallis type I think, and should be further up the order and bowl less IMO.

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    Botham is ahead but stokes no doubt can reach his stature if he continues to perform like he is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    No discussion. Botham. Though he was not the best England cricketer either.

    Stokes has a big future as a Kallis type I think, and should be further up the order and bowl less IMO.
    Why no discussion, man?

    He won you the World Cup and might very well save you an Ashes at home. Never mind , he was also a player of the series in England series win in South Africa.

  28. #28
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    Sir Ben Stokes

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Why no discussion, man?

    He won you the World Cup and might very well save you an Ashes at home. Never mind , he was also a player of the series in England series win in South Africa.
    I would say they are roughly equal as batters and catchers. But Botham was far, far ahead with the ball. 24 fivefers.

  30. #30
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    Probably the best all rounder. HE is not going to pick fifers like Botham. But does enough. He has moved well ahead of Holder now.

  31. #31
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    out of the world performance from Stokes!!!! . But, as a complete all rounder, there is no comparison with Botham... especially in ODIs , Stokes with almost 42 avg: in bowling when around 23.5 is the yardstick for greatness is not a genuine all rounder. But the impact performances this man comes out with time and again is simple amazing.

  32. #32
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    Stokes can win his team a match from an impossible situation.

    How many can do this?

  33. #33
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    As a batsman, Stokes is ahead of Botham and Kapil, and of course levels ahead of Imran and Hadlee. He is probably at the same level as Sobers.

    However, as a bowler, he is nowhere near. Nonetheless, he is a great of the game.

  34. #34
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    Amazing performance, but not even close to English GOAT.

    Iím from Lancashire, but even I admit that Fred Trueman is a million miles ahead of any other English cricketer ever.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    As a batsman, Stokes is ahead of Botham and Kapil, and of course levels ahead of Imran and Hadlee. He is probably at the same level as Sobers.

    However, as a bowler, he is nowhere near. Nonetheless, he is a great of the game.
    I agree with every single word.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    As a batsman, Stokes is ahead of Botham and Kapil, and of course levels ahead of Imran and Hadlee. He is probably at the same level as Sobers.

    However, as a bowler, he is nowhere near. Nonetheless, he is a great of the game.
    What do you think is career batting average will end being, if you had to guess?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Amazing performance, but not even close to English GOAT.

    Iím from Lancashire, but even I admit that Fred Trueman is a million miles ahead of any other English cricketer ever.
    Played in the amateur era, they're all vastly inferior to the modern day world class players, let alone the legends and the greats of those who played from the 70s to the present day.

  38. #38
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    The obsession with ATG and greatest on this forum...
    Last edited by Chrish; 25th August 2019 at 21:31.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    What do you think is career batting average will end being, if you had to guess?
    He can probably end up with a sub 45 average in Tests. The application that he showed yesterday was a sign of him coming of age, because we all knew he could hit as well as any.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    He can probably end up with a sub 45 average in Tests. The application that he showed yesterday was a sign of him coming of age, because we all knew he could hit as well as any.
    I agree. He will exceed 40+ comfortably and as a handy 5th bowler, just absolutely remarkable.

    Kallis may have better stats but he certainly didn't have the match winning ability that Stokes had.

  41. #41
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    Ben stokes is fast becoming "clutch guru".

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    Played in the amateur era, they're all vastly inferior to the modern day world class players, let alone the legends and the greats of those who played from the 70s to the present day.
    Trueman was a professional.

    He was quicker than any modern English bowler and he bowled against better batsmen - Sobers, the three Wís, Harvey et al.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Trueman was a professional.

    He was quicker than any modern English bowler and he bowled against better batsmen - Sobers, the three W’s, Harvey et al.
    Even if he was professional, he averaged 32 in the WI against the so-called "better batsmen".

    Also he didn't play any cricket in Asia and played 70% of his tests at home. With the lack of spread of his accomplishments, it's ridiculous to even suggest he was England's greatest cricketer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    As a batsman, Stokes is ahead of Botham and Kapil, and of course levels ahead of Imran and Hadlee. He is probably at the same level as Sobers.

    However, as a bowler, he is nowhere near. Nonetheless, he is a great of the game.

    Same level as Sobers??? Sobers has 57 bat average!!!!!!!

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    L Lloyd p
    L

  46. #46
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    Stokes for me is a better version of flintoff with more consistency, he is streets ahead of any current allrounder, lol please don't put pandya in the same bracket, botham was a much more consistent has a match winner in era of the great allrounder where imran was the daddy of them all

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by satheesh View Post
    Same level as Sobers??? Sobers has 57 bat average!!!!!!!
    I would back Stokes to average 50+ against the 50s and 60s bowlers.

  48. #48
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    Flintoff was also hyped for some time. They use only Ashes as barometer to judge players.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    As a batsman, Stokes is ahead of Botham and Kapil, and of course levels ahead of Imran and Hadlee. He is probably at the same level as Sobers.

    However, as a bowler, he is nowhere near. Nonetheless, he is a great of the game.
    Stokes averaged 58 in tests?

  50. #50
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    Stokes has had an incredible year, I feel Botham's ashes performance was too good and in more dire situations ... he did it with bat and ball.

    I do feel Flintoffs batting was overhyped, Stokes batting is a lot better but his bowling is good but not up to Botham's and Flintoff's level yet.

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    Stokes certainly is a better bat than Botham, Kapil and Imran. That's not up for debate. He is probably a Hussey level batsmen IMO and a Kallis level bowler.

    In ODIs, he has been their standout player in World Cup and won his team the finals from nearly an impossible position.

    Botham maybe a better test cricketer but in ODI format, Stokes has done what Botham couldn't do and Flintoff is also better than Botham in ODI.

    Overall, its close between Botham and Stokes IMO because latter has won them a WC pretty much on his own capability and has won his team a test series in South Africa and has played a pivotal role in this Ashes. An absolute match winner.

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    Ian Botham is far ahead.

    That said, winning the world cup final and this test surely makes Stokes an English ATG!

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Stokes certainly is a better bat than Botham, Kapil and Imran. That's not up for debate. He is probably a Hussey level batsmen IMO and a Kallis level bowler.

    In ODIs, he has been their standout player in World Cup and won his team the finals from nearly an impossible position.

    Botham maybe a better test cricketer but in ODI format, Stokes has done what Botham couldn't do and Flintoff is also better than Botham in ODI.

    Overall, its close between Botham and Stokes IMO because latter has won them a WC pretty much on his own capability and has won his team a test series in South Africa and has played a pivotal role in this Ashes. An absolute match winner.
    I disagree with your first statement. Botham, Kapil and Imran played in a harder era and yet he averages 35 which is about the same as them.

    But he is getting better and better, particularly against spin. Imran was probably the best pressure-player of the eighties aces but now Stokes is too. There is time for his average to climb to 40-plus.

    I agree with the Kallis bowling analogy but didn't Hussey average 50?

  54. #54
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    Stokes batting is amazing and he is very clutch.

    But, his bowling is not good enough to be better than Botham.

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    Stokes won England a World Cup. Botham did no such thing.

    Botham is probably better than Stokes currently. However, Stokes has the potential to surpass him.


    Bangladeshi Fan

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    Stokes has a ring, Botham doesn't. Championships are all that matter.

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    Definitely a player for the big moments, he's already an all time great along with Smith and Kohli.


    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

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    Stokes has already surpassed Flintoff.

    Next up on Stokesyís hit-list is the great Botham.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I disagree with your first statement. Botham, Kapil and Imran played in a harder era and yet he averages 35 which is about the same as them.

    But he is getting better and better, particularly against spin. Imran was probably the best pressure-player of the eighties aces but now Stokes is too. There is time for his average to climb to 40-plus.

    I agree with the Kallis bowling analogy but didn't Hussey average 50?
    Stats don't reveal how good a batsmen Ben Stokes is. He is a phenomenal player under pressure and already played a couple of ATG test innings with the bat, one was the audacious double hundred Vs South Africa and the other was the one we saw yesterday with Ashes in-line. Remember,he also has 1 in ODIs on the biggest possible occasion.

    He was player of series for England series win in SA, a World Cup win and has two hundreds in this Ashes already. Bigger the moment, stronger he comes with.

    Imran had 5 hundreds in 88 tests, Stokes already has 8 in 55 now, 3 Vs Australia,2 Vs South Africa and 1 was in India. Botham may have higher hundreds but don't see him as a no.5 bat but can see Stokes playing in my XI as a no.5 bat.

    A great bat, an ATG fielder and a good bowler(on par with Kallis), that makes him an ATG and he has done it across formats as well.
    Last edited by Ab Fan; 26th August 2019 at 09:36.

  60. #60
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    Bob Willis believes England’s third Test victory over Australia, which saw Ben Stokes etch his name in Ashes folklore, eclipses the miracle of Headingley 1981 – and he was part of that famous win, taking a record 8/43 as the Ashes were levelled.

    Set a record target of 359, England won an epic Test by one wicket after Stokes batted 330 minutes and 219 deliveries for an unbeaten 135 to level this series and keep the Ashes alive.

    On day three, Stokes had batted 50 deliveries for two runs before stumps. His third ran came up off his 73rd delivery faced. His half-century needed 152 balls. As wickets fell, Stokes hung on from one end. He did not celebrate his century, which was raised in a period of stunning T20-style hitting, and only erupted as soon as he hit the winning runs.

    Watching Stokes bat the entire fourth day at Headingley, while calling the match, former England fast bowler Willis was moved to term the World Cup hero’s century as superior to Ian Botham‘s fabled 149 not out at the same venue 28 years ago.

    “Chasing down 359 to win and keep the Ashes alive after being bowled out for 67 in the first innings – that’s a story you’d find hard to believe in a comic strip,” said Willis on the Ashes Debate Podcast on Sky Sports.

    “Quite how Ben Stokes had the strength to play an innings like that after his heroics in the World Cup and subsequent Tests was something else. Naturally, his unbeaten 135 will be compared to Ian Botham’s 149 at Headingley 38 years ago – and let me tell you that Ben’s is the better knock.”

    Ian Botham’s 149* at Headingley changed the tone of the 1981 Ashes.© Getty

    Willis had a close-hand view of Botham’s swashbuckling batting at Headingley in 1981, first sitting on the team balcony and later adding 37 vital runs with the allrounder for the final wicket, his contribution being two runs from 31 balls before he was last out.

    In contrast, he felt Stokes’ application was greater given the magnitude of the chase England were attempting.

    “Ian’s started off as an outrageous slog with edges off the seam bowlers. Kim Hughes should have bowled the spinner Ray Bright earlier, and Ian would have hit one up in the air,” said Willis. “In contrast, Ben looked so composed – he knew when to press the accelerator, and he knew when to encourage his tail-enders at the other end. He played some outrageous strokes towards the end, displaying immense confidence. Some of the shots that Stokes played today hadn’t been invented when Ian was playing!”

    Once the last man Jack Leach joined him, with England needing 73 runs to win, Stokes opened up with some audacious hits. It began with two sixes off Nathan Lyon in one over, over long-off and a reverse-sweep over deep point to bring the requirement to under 50 runs.

    Then Stokes ramped Pat Cummins for six more, followed by a first-ball four off Josh Hazlewood to raise his century off 199 deliveries. The next two balls were smacked for sixes over deep square leg and deep midwicket. After Marcus Harris dropped a diving catch near third man with Stokes on 116, the English allrounder hit successive fours off Cummins.

    In Lyon’s next over, Stokes was reprieved on an lbw shout because Australia did not have any reviews left, and the bowler himself fumbled a collection from Cummins at the non-striker’s end to give Leach a life.

    Once Leach levelled the scores with a single, Stokes hit the winning runs with a back-foot punch off Cummins for four.

    Watching the drama unfold, Willis marvelled at Stokes’ ability to stay calm and accelerate as well.

    “I don’t think it was more by accident than design that those sixes only just carried over the boundary; he was in complete control,” he said. “Yes, he had to accelerate to get England down from needing 60-odd to 20-odd, but he didn’t panic at any stage.It was a remarkable innings from a remarkable cricketer, and it means the Ashes are very much up for grabs "

    https://www.cricketcountry.com/news/...heroics-884510


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  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Stats don't reveal how good a batsmen Ben Stokes is. He is a phenomenal player under pressure and already played a couple of ATG test innings with the bat, one was the audacious double hundred Vs South Africa and the other was the one we saw yesterday with Ashes in-line. Remember,he also has 1 in ODIs on the biggest possible occasion.

    He was player of series for England series win in SA, a World Cup win and has two hundreds in this Ashes already. Bigger the moment, stronger he comes with.

    Imran had 5 hundreds in 88 tests, Stokes already has 8 in 55 now, 3 Vs Australia,2 Vs South Africa and 1 was in India. Botham may have higher hundreds but don't see him as a no.5 bat but can see Stokes playing in my XI as a no.5 bat.

    A great bat, an ATG fielder and a good bowler(on par with Kallis), that makes him an ATG and he has done it across formats as well.
    I don’t really care about ODI performances. It’s not the gold standard. Headingley was better than the WC win for me.

    Botham played at lot at seven or six because he bowled so much and because he was in a good batting line. Remember that he was the world’s leading wicket taker for a while, after Lillee had raised the bar so high over Trueman. I made a mistake, he didn’t have 24 fivefers, he had 27 fivefers and four tenfers.

    Let’s see if Stokes scores a century and takes thirteen wickets in a test in India. If he keeps improving with the bat I will say he is a better bat than Botham. Though Stokes never faced WI’s great fast attack on a minefield like Botham. But as bowlers Stokes is nowhere near Botham.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I don’t really care about ODI performances. It’s not the gold standard. Headingley was better than the WC win for me.

    Botham played at lot at seven or six because he bowled so much and because he was in a good batting line. Remember that he was the world’s leading wicket taker for a while, after Lillee had raised the bar so high over Trueman. I made a mistake, he didn’t have 24 fivefers, he had 27 fivefers and four tenfers.

    Let’s see if Stokes scores a century and takes thirteen wickets in a test in India. If he keeps improving with the bat I will say he is a better bat than Botham. Though Stokes never faced WI’s great fast attack on a minefield like Botham. But as bowlers Stokes is nowhere near Botham.
    Stokes himself said, this is among the top two best moments of his career, only behind the WC moment. Everyone will have their own great moments but I would take what players say, as its all what matters to them. And its not an usual ODI game, a WC FINAL game, something England never won in past, three times coming close to this, the intensity is un-matchable for that.

    Stokes batting is really way better than his stats, he was at what, 7 off 70 balls, and then see how well he paced his inning, ended with 135 off 215 balls. He started slowly in ODI WC final as well(it was a requirement there) and then switched gear brilliantly.

    Botham, I believe, was a better bowler than a batter. Stokes is a better batter than a bowler, can bat at 5 and win his team games from any position, quite like, VVS or Hussey.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I don’t really care about ODI performances. It’s not the gold standard. Headingley was better than the WC win for me.

    Botham played at lot at seven or six because he bowled so much and because he was in a good batting line. Remember that he was the world’s leading wicket taker for a while, after Lillee had raised the bar so high over Trueman. I made a mistake, he didn’t have 24 fivefers, he had 27 fivefers and four tenfers.

    Let’s see if Stokes scores a century and takes thirteen wickets in a test in India. If he keeps improving with the bat I will say he is a better bat than Botham. Though Stokes never faced WI’s great fast attack on a minefield like Botham. But as bowlers Stokes is nowhere near Botham.
    Stokes can hit a 200 and take 7-8 wickets in a match though, compared to Botham hitting a 100 and taking 13 wickets because he is more a batter than a bowler.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Stokes himself said, this is among the top two best moments of his career, only behind the WC moment.
    This is your own extrapolation. He never stated that it was the second best moment of his career, only that it equalled the World Cup. Once the dust settles, the enormity of what he achieved yesterday will draw upon him more clearly.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Though Stokes never faced WI’s great fast attack on a minefield like Botham.
    Not sure this means anything given that Botham was never able to perform against the West Indies.

  66. #66
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    Best ever eng cricketers botham/stokes/Dharmasena/joel Wilson.

    The latter 2 have handed eng the ashes & world cup. Had they done there jobs half decent nz would be world champions & aus ashes winners.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by AAli98 View Post
    Best ever eng cricketers botham/stokes/Dharmasena/joel Wilson.

    The latter 2 have handed eng the ashes & world cup. Had they done there jobs half decent nz would be world champions & aus ashes winners.
    Aus had themselves to blame for a couple of mistakes. For NZ, I feel, they dont have themselves to blame at that moment, it was sheer bad luck for them.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Monetarist View Post
    This is your own extrapolation. He never stated that it was the second best moment of his career, only that it equalled the World Cup. Once the dust settles, the enormity of what he achieved yesterday will draw upon him more clearly.
    Yup, but deep down inside, he will have WC win bigger.

  69. #69
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    as of now Botham all the way ..... Botham great all rounder , Stokes an all rounder who gives great performances time and again.

    I just don't find Stokes an ODI all rounder . His bowl avg: is almost 42. Some days back , i did a rough analysis w.r.t greatness yardstick of current ODI batsmen & bowlers.For that , calculated the combined avg: of top 10 batsmen & bowlers of today in ODIS. Bat avg: was around 50+ and bowl avg: around 23. So when 23 is the yardstick for bowling greatness, to avg: 42 is virtually almost non existant as a bowler.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by satheesh View Post
    as of now Botham all the way ..... Botham great all rounder , Stokes an all rounder who gives great performances time and again.

    I just don't find Stokes an ODI all rounder . His bowl avg: is almost 42. Some days back , i did a rough analysis w.r.t greatness yardstick of current ODI batsmen & bowlers.For that , calculated the combined avg: of top 10 batsmen & bowlers of today in ODIS. Bat avg: was around 50+ and bowl avg: around 23. So when 23 is the yardstick for bowling greatness, to avg: 42 is virtually almost non existant as a bowler.
    Who cares about ODI bowling average when he won the WC.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Yup, but deep down inside, he will have WC win bigger.
    Are you a mind reader ?

    Here's what he wrote afterwards:




    He's English and test cricket is the pinnacle for any English cricketer. No one outside the ECB bubble actually cared about the ODI World Cup.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by pakistani pride View Post
    Who cares about ODI bowling average when he won the WC.
    he didn't actually win the world cup even with that unusual sort of luck, that is deflection. World cup was decided in super overs and using a bizzare rule. But that was a phenomenal effort from him though.

    Again ... I was answering w.r.t topic in hand

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Monetarist View Post
    Are you a mind reader ?

    Here's what he wrote afterwards:




    He's English and test cricket is the pinnacle for any English cricketer. No one outside the ECB bubble actually cared about the ODI World Cup.
    Okay, it's fine. But it's not done yet. A series draw means Australia will retain the Ashes.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Okay, it's fine. But it's not done yet. A series draw means Australia will retain the Ashes.
    True. If England lose the Ashes from here, this moment will lose much of its lustre.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Monetarist View Post
    Not sure this means anything given that Botham was never able to perform against the West Indies.
    Actually I saw him take an eightfer and then score 81 later that same day against them so "never" is incorrect.

    Stokes has never played bowling of that quality. Nobody playing today has.

    Neither has Stokes faced a Lillee, or Imran, or Hadlee. If Botham played today on these flat decks he would average fifty with the bat.
    Last edited by Robert; 26th August 2019 at 17:35.

  76. #76
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    There is no comparison at the moment. As much as I have grown to respect stokes in these last few months and as good as his batting is becoming, he isn't half the bowler beefy was. He also hasn't had a career of the same length of importance.

    I still don't think he has surpassed freddy either, let alone on par with Englands GOAT.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Actually I saw him take an eightfer and then score 81 later that same day against them so "never" is incorrect.

    Stokes has never played bowling of that quality. Nobody playing today has.

    Neither has Stokes faced a Lillee, or Imran, or Hadlee. If Botham played today on these flat decks he would average fifty with the bat.
    He also got taken apart the next day by Gordon Greenidge. Don't get me wrong, I rate Botham above Stokes because of his bowling but he severely underperformed against the best team of that era.

    Incidentally this pitch at Leeds was anything but flat, and the Australians didn't bowl badly at all.

  78. #78
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    Don't care what oldies have to say here. Stokes is the greatest England cricketer ever. I've seen it with my own eyes. No one was better than him and no one will be better than him, ever. He has done things which other England cricketers will only dream of. A world cup and the greatest Ashes chase ever. How can one say quality of attack? Cummins, Hazlewood, and Pattinson is as good as any other attack that ever played. Just sour grapes from those who want to build up Botham. Give it a rest.

  79. #79
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    Botham is still regarded as one of the ATG test all rounders , Stokes isnít ...yet !

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Botham is still regarded as one of the ATG test all rounders , Stokes isn’t ...yet !
    Stokes won't be an ATG, he will be the GOAT. Can't see anyone surpassing his feats, ever. He is a freak and will be talked about as long as cricket exists.


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