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  1. #1
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    What to do do with this trio?

    I don't like to rely on hearsay or rumours about players, but when several people which includes team-mates and coaches keep saying the same things, then there is more than likely a problem. When people keep saying to me or writing this about certain players, then there is definitely something to sort out:

    "their attitude stinks"

    "he spends too much time with Hassan"

    "He's spending too much time away from cricket"

    "He needs a rocket"

    "He has a massive attitude problem"

    "training is less important than socialising and partying"

    "He's a right one"

    "He thinks he has already made it"

    "They need dropping"

    The above are comments about Hassan Ali, Shadab Khan and Faheem Ashraf.

    What to do with this trio?



  2. #2
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    Drop them all back to domestic cricket.

  3. #3
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    All these three veere need to be dropped permanently...

  4. #4
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    PCB needs to take notice.

    These players are their property/assets and how they conduct themselves is important.


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  5. #5
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    Drop them to allow them to take care of there important business. They already got the fame so they should not have issues fitting in else where.

  6. #6
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    Surely those whose job is to look after these players can see what others can? All this social media chit chat and stories coming out - surely these are all red-flags?


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  7. #7
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    Mickey kicked out Umar for his poor attitude and fitness. Surely he would’ve treated these three the same if these rumours were true. Misbah isn’t the kind of guy to take this crap either.
    Last edited by Saj; 7th October 2019 at 02:33.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boi View Post
    Mickey kicked out Umar for his poor attitude and fitness. Surely he would’ve treated these three the same if these rumours were true. Misbah isn’t the kind of guy to take this crap either.
    Misbah has just started. Remember they arent abusive to coaches etc
    Last edited by Saj; 7th October 2019 at 02:34.


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  9. #9
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    Hasan and Shadab are understandable, although still premature. What the heck has Faheem done to think "he has made it"?

  10. #10
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    Wait, what wrong have they done?

    WHy do we assume that if a player is not performing its because he is socializing.

    IF they are eating right, training right and playing good amount of games, than their social lie is irrelevent and maybe they have bad form.

    Faheem Ashraf was always a limited cricketer, i called it on the first day on this forum when people got excited that he hit a few runs on a very very very small boundary.

    Tommarow if Shaheen doesnt perform the same will be said, oh look he thinks he has made it because he has started to wear designer brands. We assume things too much. If Shaheen starts wearing branded clothes and doesnt perform it will automatically assumed that he doesnt care about cricket anymore


    "Life is Pain"
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    I don't like to rely on hearsay or rumours about players, but when several people which includes team-mates and coaches keep saying the same things, then there is more than likely a problem. When people keep saying to me or writing this about certain players, then there is definitely something to sort out:

    "their attitude stinks"

    "he spends too much time with Hassan"

    "He's spending too much time away from cricket"

    "He needs a rocket"

    "He has a massive attitude problem"

    "training is less important than socialising and partying"

    "He's a right one"

    "He thinks he has already made it"

    "They need dropping"

    The above are comments about Hassan Ali, Shadab Khan and Faheem Ashraf.

    What to do with this trio?
    People within the team have said this to you ??

    Arthur had only positives to say about these guys , especially Hasan (exceptional fitness) and shadab (most promising young cricketer around imo ) .

    Maybe they have strayed a little but they are still young and can continue to develop. Shadab in particular looks special.

    You dont have to mention names but what type of people told you this??

  12. #12
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    If only this trio's cricketing output matched their social media output.

    Shadab has been handed too much too soon, elevated to international cricket without any developmental process whatsoever. A few PSL matches and he thinks he's a superstar. We've all seen his form in 2019 and he's nowhere near good enough as a frontline spinner.

    For his sake, he should be sent back to play two full seasons of 4 day cricket to bowl long spells and put in the hard yards.

    Faheem is a club level cricketer so not sure how he can develop an ego.

    Time we booted out these pseudo allrounders and make them EARN their place.

  13. #13
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    if the players are performing, all those comments can be overlooked - to be honest none of those seem very concerning anyway, considering that we are discussing 3 young athletes

    But when you aren't performing everything comes under a microscope. None of those 3 players deserve to be selected for Pakistan on recent performances

  14. #14
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    A good coach is not always a hard taskmaster but also knows how to get the best out of everyone. Not everyone will react the same way to being dropped or taken to task. A good coach needs to understand every human being is different and learn how to get the best out of them.

    People here are using words such as "drop them" so casually, every player will have issues at certain points in their careers if everyone gets dropped you won't have a team. Current coaching staff need to sit down with the players and find the right approach to lead them in the right direction. If nothing works then and only then dropping should be an option.

  15. #15
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    So much talent but no discipline will haunt these guys.

    Don’t want them to go the Umar Akmal-way...

    They should be told to keep their mind focused on the main thing which is cricket.

    They need to realize they can make it big if they want to.

    They need to realize they will have to sacrifice now for their future success.

    Future and successful career > short-term loss.

  16. #16
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    Shadab is the real deal IMO. Leggies always take time (many series) to adjust their lines but once established they are a key part of any XI.

    Hassan is lost, his elder brother must have a talk with him!

    Faheem is a nobody.

  17. #17
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    Doesn't matter what these random players or coaches are saying to you, if they're showing up to training what they do in their free time is none of our business.

  18. #18
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    Dropping them isn’t a punishment - National cap is an honour, not right or privilege. Players not performing (or not showing desired behaviour) must be dropped from National team

    Sending domestic isn’t any punishment, rather an opportunity- these players can rectify their career only through performance in domestics.

    Banning from National team has a collateral damage - PCT will also miss players upon whom few years of resources are coming invested.

    So, to me only solution is to hurt them where it matters, but don’t cost PCT - that’s, fine them financially, demote/drop from central contract (& play on match fee basis), and block them (don’t issue NOC) for is individual tournaments, if their commitment to PCT’s cause isn’t satisfactory.

    After that, if they decide to part with PCT - so it be; but until and unless desired professional behaviour & attitudes are shown, their pocket will suffer. After few years of hardship (in Canada) from my past luxurious life, one thing I have learned the tough way - to shape up someone, best medicine is to make him panic for his wallet & bills. It works magically, without damaging core interests of the proceedings.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    Misbah has just started. Remember they arent abusive to coaches etc
    So they’ve been abusive to journalists? Who cares. Most of the journalists in Pakistan deserve no respect with the kinds of questions they ask the cricketers.

    If there is actual proof of these guys not working as hard as they should be by i.e skipping training sessions, failing fitness tests then fair enough.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by iPakistani View Post
    Doesn't matter what these random players or coaches are saying to you, if they're showing up to training what they do in their free time is none of our business.

    Exactly. Journalists in Pakistan have a stupid obsession with what the cricketers do in their free time and criticise them for hairstyles or social media activity. It really is none of their business.

  21. #21
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    This is what happens when you put nothing cricketers on a pedestal. The likes of Shadab and Faheem wouldn’t be anywhere near international cricket in a proper cricket nation.

    However, because of a few performances in the PSL, we have made them feel like they are superstars in the making. They feel entitled and have started to believe in their own underserved hype.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usman Chadda View Post
    Hasan and Shadab are understandable, although still premature. What the heck has Faheem done to think "he has made it"?
    That legendary knock in CT 2017 against BD

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    Shadab should be hanging on to his place by his finger nails. Drop Faheem. Hasan Ali has already been dropped.

  24. #24
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    Half the comments are irrelevant are others can worked upon. These boys are in early 20's. Too much testosterone and too little discipline. They need careful handling.

  25. #25
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    Having known of the culture that thrives inside the cricket board this not going to go away from this set of players.

    This has been the case for many years and many have been a part of it and until and unless the heads on top do not want to step in and do anything it will be the same thing for another decade.

    This also has been happening due to some of those at the top who have good connections and the same attitude as these players.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    This is what happens when you put nothing cricketers on a pedestal. The likes of Shadab and Faheem wouldn’t be anywhere near international cricket in a proper cricket nation.

    However, because of a few performances in the PSL, we have made them feel like they are superstars in the making. They feel entitled and have started to believe in their own underserved hype.
    You were right - the “show off” group should have been dropped a long time ago.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    I don't like to rely on hearsay or rumours about players, but when several people which includes team-mates and coaches keep saying the same things, then there is more than likely a problem. When people keep saying to me or writing this about certain players, then there is definitely something to sort out:

    "their attitude stinks"

    "he spends too much time with Hassan"

    "He's spending too much time away from cricket"

    "He needs a rocket"

    "He has a massive attitude problem"

    "training is less important than socialising and partying"

    "He's a right one"

    "He thinks he has already made it"

    "They need dropping"

    The above are comments about Hassan Ali, Shadab Khan and Faheem Ashraf.

    What to do with this trio?
    Good.

    Brilliant.

    Fantastic!

    As

    a) A specialist Psychiatrist, and
    b) A person with no Pakistani heritage

    .....it has been obvious for the last decade that Pakistan cricket has been brought low as an increasingly conservative nation introduces a fawning deference for age and seniority into its cricket team.

    Younis Khan outperformed Misbah, but failed in 5/6 innings in South Africa, 6/7 innings in England and 7/10 innings in Australia and New Zealand.

    It is a FACT that since the retirement of Younis and Misbah, in Tests:

    1. Shadab Khan has outperformed Yasir Shah outside Asia.

    2. Faheem Ashraf has performed surprisingly well.

    3. Sarfraz Ahmed has under-performed grievously and does not deserve selection ahead of Mohammad Rizwan.

    4. Azhar Ali has averaged less than 30 for the last two years.

    5. Asad Shafiq has averaged 35 and has looked in decline.

    6. Yasir Shah has averaged over 80 with the ball against major nations outside Asia.

    7. Babar Azam has been the best batsman, even in Tests.

    Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas.

    Pakistan has a bunch of underperforming senior players who feel threatened by better-performing youngsters and who expect to command deference and “respect” that their performances do not entitle them to.

    Hasan Ali is different - I have said all along that he is too short to succeed.

    But the reason Shadab and Faheem get up the senior players noses is that they don’t fawn all over underperforming has-beens.

    Again, the fact that Northants have just signed Faheem to an expanded contract proves that the problem is within Pakistan cricket, not the player.

    You have a bunch of useless senior players who should have been dropped now, all under the patronage of an unqualified coach / Chief Selector who used to be their captain and patron.

    Of course they are whingeing to him. They are trying to remain in a team they are unqualified to be in.


    Misbah
    Waqar
    Azhar
    Shafiq
    Yasir
    Sarfraz

    None of the six men listed above should be anywhere near this team. They are imposters who have failed to perform anywhere as a current player or current coach to qualify to be where they are.
    Last edited by Junaids; 7th October 2019 at 04:44.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    I don't like to rely on hearsay or rumours about players, but when several people which includes team-mates and coaches keep saying the same things, then there is more than likely a problem. When people keep saying to me or writing this about certain players, then there is definitely something to sort out:

    "their attitude stinks"

    "he spends too much time with Hassan"

    "He's spending too much time away from cricket"

    "He needs a rocket"

    "He has a massive attitude problem"

    "training is less important than socialising and partying"

    "He's a right one"

    "He thinks he has already made it"

    "They need dropping"

    The above are comments about Hassan Ali, Shadab Khan and Faheem Ashraf.

    What to do with this trio?
    It's kinda sad because they started off so well.

    I think they took their success and social media a bit too seriously.

    Of course 2 of them were the face of our victory in CT 2017.

    Ashraf also got some what prominence from there and his performances in PSL.

    It seems like players in our country are going through the phase most British players went through playing in the English Premier league.

    It went on for a while where EPL produced the most overrated players in cricketing history.

    PSL as a franchise makes stars, but also exposes a few characters who don't seem that serious in cricket anymore....

    I don't think its more of an attitude adjustment, they need to improve before they can be selected back to the cricketing team

  29. #29
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    Frankly speaking i think Faheem does not have what it takes in the Limited Overs formats.

    He has done decently in tests and may have value in that format outside Asia.

    Shadab has potential but he has bowled really poorly recently- bowled too much short ugly deliveries.

    They should be dropped from limited overs and be sent back to domestics to work on their flaws.

  30. #30
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    During the domestic cricket season they should ideally be playing domestics instead of internationals.

    They are young so playing for Pakistan can wait a little bit. They need to hone their skills and earn their stripes in the domestic circuit first.

  31. #31
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    One of them is already dropped, one is out of form and almost certainly about to be dropped, and the less said about the 'allrounder' the better.

  32. #32
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    Sad days ,

    Best way to shut everyone up is too perform , then no one can question anything.

    I believe everything saj is saying but in Pakistani culture there have been countless time we’re senior players in the Pakistan team feel threatened and blame other players attitude.

    Would love to know we’re these remarks are coming from?

    Also if we’re talking about attitude surely imam’s recent behaviour ain’t exactly admirable is it !

  33. #33
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    Let's be honest, only Babar and the rookies seem like they care about improving.

    Hassan, Faheem, Shadab, Imad, Sarfraz, Fakhar, Amir, and Imam all seem like they have other things on their mind. Some are looking to cash in on T20s while others are too busy socializing. They're doing the bare minimum to stay in the team.


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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by hadi123 View Post
    Shadab should be hanging on to his place by his finger nails. Drop Faheem. Hasan Ali has already been dropped.
    I don't think Hasan has been dropped. He was sitting in the ground in a VIP chair with Shaheen. If he was dropped he would be with his domestic side. He is injured, and knowing Misbah Hasan will never be dropped as the only replacements are 19 and 17 year olds.

  35. #35
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    Point is that all of these guys have a lot of potential - they just need guidance. We all work hard and play hard but emphasis is on work hard bit which seems to be missing for some.


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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danyaalr01 View Post
    I don't think Hasan has been dropped. He was sitting in the ground in a VIP chair with Shaheen. If he was dropped he would be with his domestic side. He is injured, and knowing Misbah Hasan will never be dropped as the only replacements are 19 and 17 year olds.
    Yes he's injured but who knows if he would have been picked anyway. Has been dreadful for a very long time

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingusama92 View Post
    Let's be honest, only Babar and the rookies seem like they care about improving.

    Hassan, Faheem, Shadab, Imad, Sarfraz, Fakhar, Amir, and Imam all seem like they have other things on their mind. Some are looking to cash in on T20s while others are too busy socializing. They're doing the bare minimum to stay in the team.
    Doesn’t apply to Imad or Imam.. both massively improved. Fakhar always been a bit limited and Sarfraz past it

    The hassan faheem and Shadab trio need to be thrown out for a long time. Shadab Especially thinks he’s some gods gift to cricket

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by hadi123 View Post
    Yes he's injured but who knows if he would have been picked anyway. Has been dreadful for a very long time
    Misbah said in the presser that Hasan was in the initial squad but was removed due to injury. Misbah loves Hasan, he will never get rid of him.

  39. #39
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    This is a well worn path of stupidity that needs to be stamped out. Drop them if they dont improve.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasimjunior View Post
    Doesn’t apply to Imad or Imam.. both massively improved. Fakhar always been a bit limited and Sarfraz past it

    The hassan faheem and Shadab trio need to be thrown out for a long time. Shadab Especially thinks he’s some gods gift to cricket
    In the past two years, Imad has a bowling average of 60+ in ODIs. Yes, 60. Even his T20I bowling average and economy rate have dropped.

    Imam is the same batsman he was since day one. An accumulator with the same flaws. He's below-par in Tests, his ODI numbers have dropped over the past year (AVG, SR), and he's sitting at home for T20Is.

    These guys aren't improving. They're just existing.

    I'll admit Sarfraz probably doesn't belong on my list. He's simply past it even if his heart is in the right place.

    The others mentioned in this thread are the worst of the lot. Amir as well. He doesn't even try except for a few games. That's probably the most sad bit.
    Last edited by kingusama92; 7th October 2019 at 15:20.


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  41. #41
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    clearly they have taken the sport for granted and are not looking to improve. they say stagnant water becomes murky and that is clearly whats happening with these three players.

    instead of improvement we see regression.

  42. #42
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    The problem is clearly Underperforming Senior Players going whingeing to Waqar and Misbah, their previous and current coach.

    Azhar, Shafiq, Sarfraz and Yasir have no right to still be in the team, and they are threatened by superior youngsters coming through who don’t give them the respect they don’t deserve but somehow feel entitled to receive.

    This is a non-story which is a symptom of the malaise.

    I would rather know why those four senior players have failed to perform since Younis and Misbah retired.

    Get rid of the under-performing geriatrics, not the next generation.
    Last edited by Junaids; 7th October 2019 at 17:21.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    The problem is clearly Underperforming Senior Players going whingeing to Waqar and Misbah, their previous and current coach.

    Azhar, Shafiq, Sarfraz and Yasir have no right to still be in the team, and they are threatened by superior youngsters coming through who don’t give them the respect they don’t deserve but somehow feel entitled to receive.

    This is a non-story which is a symptom of the malaise.

    I would rather know why those four senior players have failed to perform since Younis and Misbah retired.

    Get rid of the under-performing geriatrics, not the next generation.
    So your idea is to replace geriatric mediocrity with next-gen incompetence just for the sake of it by encouraging such behaviour ?


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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    The problem is clearly Underperforming Senior Players going whingeing to Waqar and Misbah, their previous and current coach.

    Azhar, Shafiq, Sarfraz and Yasir have no right to still be in the team, and they are threatened by superior youngsters coming through who don’t give them the respect they don’t deserve but somehow feel entitled to receive.

    This is a non-story which is a symptom of the malaise.

    I would rather know why those four senior players have failed to perform since Younis and Misbah retired.

    Get rid of the under-performing geriatrics, not the next generation.
    Drop anyone who isn't performing. Faheem, Hasan, Sarfaraz, Asad, Azhar, Wahab, Akmal and Shehzad. Drop Shadab from LOI cricket, he should get to play the Aussie series though as he deserves to play some more tests as his batting has helped Pakistan more than once in tests and his bowling could be useful in Aussie.

  45. #45
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    Didnt Mickey Arther suggest Shadab Khan to be the captain when he was called in front of a commission just recently post WC? What can go wrong in the attitude within few months?

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_gamer007 View Post
    A good coach is not always a hard taskmaster but also knows how to get the best out of everyone. Not everyone will react the same way to being dropped or taken to task. A good coach needs to understand every human being is different and learn how to get the best out of them.

    People here are using words such as "drop them" so casually, every player will have issues at certain points in their careers if everyone gets dropped you won't have a team. Current coaching staff need to sit down with the players and find the right approach to lead them in the right direction. If nothing works then and only then dropping should be an option.
    Well put.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan24 View Post
    Didnt Mickey Arther suggest Shadab Khan to be the captain when he was called in front of a commission just recently post WC? What can go wrong in the attitude within few months?
    From what I've heard Shadab is very humble and hasn't forgotten his roots according to his childhood friends and the team management. He is up at dawn every morning training before everyone else. This must be false about Shadab. But Hasan is a show off, he even wears a necklace with himself on it.

  48. #48
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    If Yasir Shah is gonna play over Shadab Khan in ODIs than I will even take Shadab khan with in attitude. In Aus series in UAE Zafar Gohar could have easily played when Shadab was rested but if a leggy is gonna be replaced by a leggy and that replacement leggy is Yasir Shah then I hope you guys know what you are wishing for.

    If Zafar Gohar, Umer Khan, Usama Mir, Haris Rauf, Naseem Shah, Musa, Amad Butt, Ahmed Bashir, Zia ul Haq or even Amir Yamin are gonna given oppurtunities when Hassan, Shadab are rested or are asked to get their form back then I am up for it. However if we are gonna see Yasir Shah, Abbas etc in ODIs then no thanks.

  49. #49
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    Lots of knives out for Shadab at the moment - just needs to knuckle down.


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  50. #50
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    A good leggie is an asset but an average leggie is a liability. We should not jump on the bandwagon because other teams are doing well with them. Kuldeep, Chahal, Rashid etc. are levels above Shadab.

    Similarly, no point in playing the likes of Faheem because other teams have good all-rounders.

    The solution is simple - drop Shadab for Gohar and drop Faheem for Hafeez, who can still be valuable as a lower-order striker. He is still far better than Asif/Iftikhar and can do a bit of containment with the ball until he gets banned for the thousandth time.

  51. #51
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    When you get into that comfort zone and think you are irreplaceable this is what happens.

    One is out the team due to a so-called injury and whose form has been horrible, another has been struggling for form for a while and keeps getting picked, the other is horribly out of form and really needs dropping.



  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    A good leggie is an asset but an average leggie is a liability. We should not jump on the bandwagon because other teams are doing well with them. Kuldeep, Chahal, Rashid etc. are levels above Shadab.

    Similarly, no point in playing the likes of Faheem because other teams have good all-rounders.

    The solution is simple - drop Shadab for Gohar and drop Faheem for Hafeez, who can still be valuable as a lower-order striker. He is still far better than Asif/Iftikhar and can do a bit of containment with the ball until he gets banned for the thousandth time.
    I do agree Hafeez is more useful down the order but surely we should try and groom someone else for that role? Maybe someone like Khushdil Shah who can also bowl a few overs too. Hafeez max only has till next T20 world cup. We do need to invest in some new players so we can actually compete in tournaments down the line

  53. #53
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    Faheem and Shadab should stay for a while.

    Hasan should go back to domestic scene. Pakistan now have other better pacers.


    Bangladeshi Fan

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    This is what happens when you put nothing cricketers on a pedestal. The likes of Shadab and Faheem wouldn’t be anywhere near international cricket in a proper cricket nation.

    However, because of a few performances in the PSL, we have made them feel like they are superstars in the making. They feel entitled and have started to believe in their own underserved hype.
    Agree with you. I remember the whole 'starboy' phase

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed_99 View Post
    I do agree Hafeez is more useful down the order but surely we should try and groom someone else for that role? Maybe someone like Khushdil Shah who can also bowl a few overs too. Hafeez max only has till next T20 world cup. We do need to invest in some new players so we can actually compete in tournaments down the line
    Khushdil definitely deserves a chance, although his bowling is probably part-time level. The sensible thing to do would be to drop Asif and Iftikhar and rope in Hafeez and Khushdil, creating competition between the two by rotating them frequently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Khushdil definitely deserves a chance, although his bowling is probably part-time level. The sensible thing to do would be to drop Asif and Iftikhar and rope in Hafeez and Khushdil, creating competition between the two by rotating them frequently.
    Since the World Cup ended, Hafeez has done this:

    85 runs in 5 innings in the GT20 Canada.
    115 runs in 4 innings in the Vitality T20 Blast.
    160 runs in 9 innings in the CPL.


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  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    Since the World Cup ended, Hafeez has done this:

    85 runs in 5 innings in the GT20 Canada.
    115 runs in 4 innings in the Vitality T20 Blast.
    160 runs in 9 innings in the CPL.
    Yes his form is poor, but at any given moment, he is far more likely to perform than Asif/Iftikhar.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Yes his form is poor, but at any given moment, he is far more likely to perform than Asif/Iftikhar.
    You cannot select Mohammad Hafeez as a top order or middle order batsman. He is neither at this stage in his career.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by unemployedgm View Post
    You cannot select Mohammad Hafeez as a top order or middle order batsman. He is neither at this stage in his career.
    I would play him at 6, with the license to attack from ball one. I think he is more likely to come off than the alternatives like Asif and Iftikhar.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I would play him at 6, with the license to attack from ball one. I think he is more likely to come off than the alternatives like Asif and Iftikhar.
    Iftikhar has performed well. Do you want him dropped because he’s too “old” to be replaced by an older Hafeez??

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    When you get into that comfort zone and think you are irreplaceable this is what happens.

    One is out the team due to a so-called injury and whose form has been horrible, another has been struggling for form for a while and keeps getting picked, the other is horribly out of form and really needs dropping.
    That’s highly selective, to the point that it needs to be challenged.

    In the last 18 months in Tests:

    Shadab and Faheem have performed.

    Sarfraz, Azhar, Shafiq and Yasir have not.

    It is outrageous to drop youngsters who are performing in Tests “to teach them a lesson” while the non-performing geriatric freeloaders are retained.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Khushdil definitely deserves a chance, although his bowling is probably part-time level. The sensible thing to do would be to drop Asif and Iftikhar and rope in Hafeez and Khushdil, creating competition between the two by rotating them frequently.
    What about Aamer Yamin. He is a batting allrounder and his bowling is still better than Faheem and his batting is better than Hafeez. Hafeez has lost his reflexes, this was evident in the world cup against Lockie Ferguson.

    Aamer deserves a chance, he has consistently performed in FC and has performed everytime he has been picked for Pakistan.

    Khushdil deserves a chance ahead of Asif, but they should stick with Iftikhar as he has done well, he can also get trhough 4-5 cheap overs and sometimes 8 cheap overs.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danyaalr01 View Post
    What about Aamer Yamin. He is a batting allrounder and his bowling is still better than Faheem and his batting is better than Hafeez. Hafeez has lost his reflexes, this was evident in the world cup against Lockie Ferguson.

    Aamer deserves a chance, he has consistently performed in FC and has performed everytime he has been picked for Pakistan.

    Khushdil deserves a chance ahead of Asif, but they should stick with Iftikhar as he has done well, he can also get trhough 4-5 cheap overs and sometimes 8 cheap overs.
    There is no doubt that if Yamin was given the same exposure as Faheem, he would have done better. However, I have doubts over his bowling credentials and I am not sure if his batting is good enough to compensate for it.

    Hafeez on a good day can still score a 70-80. I don’t think Yamin can manage that.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer Barbrady View Post
    Iftikhar has performed well. Do you want him dropped because he’s too “old” to be replaced by an older Hafeez??
    I don’t think he has done well and I don’t think he can outperform Hafeez in the same conditions against the same opposition. Also, I have to admit I believe that they are probably in the same age group as well.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    There is no doubt that if Yamin was given the same exposure as Faheem, he would have done better. However, I have doubts over his bowling credentials and I am not sure if his batting is good enough to compensate for it.

    Hafeez on a good day can still score a 70-80. I don’t think Yamin can manage that.
    What about the test team? He's having an excellent domestic season along with some young quicks.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I would play him at 6, with the license to attack from ball one. I think he is more likely to come off than the alternatives like Asif and Iftikhar.
    I know Hafeez is still a better and more reliabke option than the two. But where are we going with hafeez is? He is 39 at most he can play the t20wc next year but surely he isnt an option in odis anymore. We are only going backwards if we keep playing hafeez and malik.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sher Khan View Post
    I know Hafeez is still a better and more reliabke option than the two. But where are we going with hafeez is? He is 39 at most he can play the t20wc next year but surely he isnt an option in odis anymore. We are only going backwards if we keep playing hafeez and malik.
    We are going nowhere, but some players are only meant for the short-term. It is not possible to select 11 players for the future because you cannot compromise present results.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    That’s highly selective, to the point that it needs to be challenged.

    In the last 18 months in Tests:

    Shadab and Faheem have performed.

    Sarfraz, Azhar, Shafiq and Yasir have not.

    It is outrageous to drop youngsters who are performing in Tests “to teach them a lesson” while the non-performing geriatric freeloaders are retained.
    Faheem has the legendary batting average of 23 and he has 11 wickets in 7 Test innings.

    Shadab's bowling average is nearly 40 in Tests.

    Yes they have performed........terribly.
    Last edited by Saj; 9th October 2019 at 04:00.



  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by hadi123 View Post
    Shadab should be hanging on to his place by his finger nails. Drop Faheem. Hasan Ali has already been dropped.
    It wasn't even a international game, It was a practice game ***...

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    Faheem has the legendary batting average of 23 and he has 11 wickets in 7 Test innings.

    Shadab's bowling average is nearly 40 in Tests.

    Yes they have performed........terribly.
    With respect, that makes no sense. No sense at all.

    Yasir Shah and Shadab Khan are both Horses For Courses Test players, because as I will now demonstrate, Yasir Shah is generally hopeless outside Asia, while Shadab Khan is considerably better.


    Performances in the West Indies are irrelevant, as Pakistan doesn't play them in the WTC.

    So let's compare the bowling - and batting - of Yasir Shah in the places where Pakistan must play:


    1. In England and Ireland
    YASIR SHAH:
    19 wickets in 4 Tests, average 40.73
    92 runs in 4 Tests at an average of 15.33

    SHADAB KHAN:
    7 wickets in 3 Tests, average 34.43
    171 runs in 3 Tests at an average of 42.75

    2. In Australia, New Zealand and South Africa
    YASIR SHAH:
    9 wickets in 6 Tests, average 95.11
    81 runs in 6 Tests at an average of 9.00

    SHADAB KHAN:
    4 wickets in 1 Test, average 20.00
    52 runs in 1 Test at an average of 52.00

    These numbers are absolutely shocking, damning even.

    They show that in Australia, New Zealand and South Africa Yasir Shah is absolutely hopeless with both bat and ball.

    Pakistan don't have to tour South Africa in the World Test Championship, but Yasir Shah's dismal record there this January - when he achieved a quarter as much in 2 Tests as Shadab Khan did in 1 Test - proves that he cannot be taken to Australia this November.

    For the record, this is what Yasir Shah and Shadab Khan each achieved in South Africa in January 2019:

    Yasir Shah in South Africa 2018-19:
    4-0-24-0
    7.4-1-20-1
    21-1-79-0

    4, 0, 5, 5

    Shadab Khan in South Africa 2018-19
    10-2-39-1
    11.3-0-41-3

    0, 52 not out
    .

    But more to the point, I have to question what you mean when you write "Shadab's bowling average is nearly 40 in Tests".

    What on earth do you expect?

    Players like Shane Warne, Stuart MacGill and Anil Kumble who can average under 30 as a Test leg-spinner are as a rare as hen's teeth.

    Far more often leggies average well into their thirties:

    Abdul Qadir averaged 32.80.

    Mushtaq Ahmed averaged 32.97

    Intikhab Alam averaged 35.95.

    Shadab Khan averages 38.83...….but he also averages 34.28 with the bat after 5 Tests.

    What exactly do you want?

    Outside Asia, your spinner is usually a fourth innings specialist, and in the other three innings of the game he plays almost as a specialist batsman and fielder who can give the quick bowlers a rest.

    That's why Daniel Vettori played 113 Tests.

    Vettori only averaged 34.36 with the ball. But he also scored 4531 Test runs at an average of 30.

    Again, you need to decide what you want from your Test spinner outside Asia.

    Yasir Shah has a bowling average of 95.11 in Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. And you mock Shadab Khan averaging 38!

    What I want from my spinner outside Asia is this. I want him to play 50 Tests and take 100 wickets at an average of 38-40, but also score 2000 runs at an average of 35.

    I repeat, outside Asia is this was my choice:

    Option A: 50 Tests outside Asia, 150 wickets at an average of 32, 500 runs at an average of 10.
    Option B: 50 Tests outside Asia, 100 wickets at an average of 38, 2000 runs at an average of 35.

    I would take Option B every time. Yes, he might be slightly less effective on the final day at Lords or The Oval compared with Option A. But he is not going to be a complete liability at Brisbane, Christchurch, Hamilton, Melbourne, Johannesburg and Cape Town like Yasir Shah was.
    Last edited by Junaids; 9th October 2019 at 04:53.

  71. #71
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    @Saj

    One of the best things about this forum is that you have had the opportunity to get close to Pakistan's leading cricketers. The insights that you provide are superb.

    But the people with whom you are speaking often have vested interests or conflicts of interest of their own.

    In Shadab Khan's last Test, in South Africa, he took 4 wickets for 80 and was out once for 52 runs.
    In Faheem Ashraf's last Test, again in South Africa, he took 6 wickets for 90 and scored 15 runs.

    Yasir Shah played the first 2 Tests of that series and took 1 wicket for 123 and scored 14 runs in 4 innings.
    Azhar Ali played all 3 Tests and scored 59 runs at an average of 9.83.

    The bottom line is that you are writing that the youngsters are underperforming and the problem is their attitude.

    I put it to you that they are massively outperforming their senior colleagues, and it is the senior players whose position needs to be questioned, not the youngsters.

    Azhar Ali failed in his last Test series and then he failed in the county championship.

    Azhar has now scored a lot of runs in the QEA and will get selected for Australia. But the warning signs are still there: in the QEA he is playing on the same wickets against the same bowlers and the same balls as Salman Butt, and he is averaging 29.73 runs per innings less than Salman Butt.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    With respect, that makes no sense. No sense at all.

    Yasir Shah and Shadab Khan are both Horses For Courses Test players, because as I will now demonstrate, Yasir Shah is generally hopeless outside Asia, while Shadab Khan is considerably better.


    Performances in the West Indies are irrelevant, as Pakistan doesn't play them in the WTC.

    So let's compare the bowling - and batting - of Yasir Shah in the places where Pakistan must play:


    1. In England and Ireland
    YASIR SHAH:
    19 wickets in 4 Tests, average 40.73
    92 runs in 4 Tests at an average of 15.33

    SHADAB KHAN:
    7 wickets in 3 Tests, average 34.43
    171 runs in 3 Tests at an average of 42.75

    2. In Australia, New Zealand and South Africa
    YASIR SHAH:
    9 wickets in 6 Tests, average 95.11
    81 runs in 6 Tests at an average of 9.00

    SHADAB KHAN:
    4 wickets in 1 Test, average 20.00
    52 runs in 1 Test at an average of 52.00

    These numbers are absolutely shocking, damning even.

    They show that in Australia, New Zealand and South Africa Yasir Shah is absolutely hopeless with both bat and ball.

    Pakistan don't have to tour South Africa in the World Test Championship, but Yasir Shah's dismal record there this January - when he achieved a quarter as much in 2 Tests as Shadab Khan did in 1 Test - proves that he cannot be taken to Australia this November.

    For the record, this is what Yasir Shah and Shadab Khan each achieved in South Africa in January 2019:

    Yasir Shah in South Africa 2018-19:
    4-0-24-0
    7.4-1-20-1
    21-1-79-0

    4, 0, 5, 5

    Shadab Khan in South Africa 2018-19
    10-2-39-1
    11.3-0-41-3

    0, 52 not out
    .

    But more to the point, I have to question what you mean when you write "Shadab's bowling average is nearly 40 in Tests".

    What on earth do you expect?

    Players like Shane Warne, Stuart MacGill and Anil Kumble who can average under 30 as a Test leg-spinner are as a rare as hen's teeth.

    Far more often leggies average well into their thirties:

    Abdul Qadir averaged 32.80.

    Mushtaq Ahmed averaged 32.97

    Intikhab Alam averaged 35.95.

    Shadab Khan averages 38.83...….but he also averages 34.28 with the bat after 5 Tests.

    What exactly do you want?

    Outside Asia, your spinner is usually a fourth innings specialist, and in the other three innings of the game he plays almost as a specialist batsman and fielder who can give the quick bowlers a rest.

    That's why Daniel Vettori played 113 Tests.

    Vettori only averaged 34.36 with the ball. But he also scored 4531 Test runs at an average of 30.

    Again, you need to decide what you want from your Test spinner outside Asia.

    Yasir Shah has a bowling average of 95.11 in Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. And you mock Shadab Khan averaging 38!

    What I want from my spinner outside Asia is this. I want him to play 50 Tests and take 100 wickets at an average of 38-40, but also score 2000 runs at an average of 35.

    I repeat, outside Asia is this was my choice:

    Option A: 50 Tests outside Asia, 150 wickets at an average of 32, 500 runs at an average of 10.
    Option B: 50 Tests outside Asia, 100 wickets at an average of 38, 2000 runs at an average of 35.

    I would take Option B every time. Yes, he might be slightly less effective on the final day at Lords or The Oval compared with Option A. But he is not going to be a complete liability at Brisbane, Christchurch, Hamilton, Melbourne, Johannesburg and Cape Town like Yasir Shah was.
    I’m gonna have to agree with you on this one, Shadab hasn’t played in Asia, so his average will obviously be closer to 40. His batting will be valuable as he has shown his ability against pace and short bowling before. He is probably technically better than a lot of Pakistani batsmen right now and has saved Pakistan a couple of times from losses or from embarrassments.

    He is a must in the Australian tour. Yasir Shah is struggling in the ongoing QeA as well, he might be the highest wicket taker but he has a very high average and a poor economy.

    This shouldn’t even be an argument. But Faheem should not be i; the side, Aamer Yamin is a lot better and can actually bat, allowing an extra fast bowler to play.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I don’t think he has done well and I don’t think he can outperform Hafeez in the same conditions against the same opposition. Also, I have to admit I believe that they are probably in the same age group as well.
    Iftikhar has had 3 opportunities. He got 32* off 20 batting in the end overs of the first ODI and then 28* off 24 in the second and finished off that game.

    In the one T20 game he was the highest scorer (25 off 24) rebuilding the inning until he was run out by Sarfraz.

    With the ball he was economical in every game.

    So what exactly was wrong with his performance?

    Initially you were against his selection because you said he was "too old". Now it's that he "hasn't done well" (when he clearly has justified his selection thus far) and now you want an even older Hafeez to play instead.

    Maybe you should consider giving him a chance instead. It's okay to be wrong sometimes

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    @Saj

    One of the best things about this forum is that you have had the opportunity to get close to Pakistan's leading cricketers. The insights that you provide are superb.

    But the people with whom you are speaking often have vested interests or conflicts of interest of their own.

    In Shadab Khan's last Test, in South Africa, he took 4 wickets for 80 and was out once for 52 runs.
    In Faheem Ashraf's last Test, again in South Africa, he took 6 wickets for 90 and scored 15 runs.

    Yasir Shah played the first 2 Tests of that series and took 1 wicket for 123 and scored 14 runs in 4 innings.
    Azhar Ali played all 3 Tests and scored 59 runs at an average of 9.83.

    The bottom line is that you are writing that the youngsters are underperforming and the problem is their attitude.

    I put it to you that they are massively outperforming their senior colleagues, and it is the senior players whose position needs to be questioned, not the youngsters.

    Azhar Ali failed in his last Test series and then he failed in the county championship.

    Azhar has now scored a lot of runs in the QEA and will get selected for Australia. But the warning signs are still there: in the QEA he is playing on the same wickets against the same bowlers and the same balls as Salman Butt, and he is averaging 29.73 runs per innings less than Salman Butt.
    With all due respect you have no clue who or how many people have mentioned things about these 3 players to me. I have kept quiet about it for a while, but what I have written in the opening post had to be said,

    I think we all know that some of the seniors have been dire of late, that is obvious.

    If you are happy with the Test numbers so far of these 3, then Pakistani cricket is in an even worse position than many of us thought.
    Last edited by Saj; 9th October 2019 at 22:27.



  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    With all due respect you have no clue who or how many people have mentioned things about these 3 players to me. I have kept quiet about it for a while, but what I have written in the opening post had to be said,

    I think we all know that some of the seniors have been dire of late, that is obvious.

    If you are happy with the Test numbers so far of these 3, then Pakistani cricket is in an even worse position than many of us thought.
    And yet Mickey Arthur thinks that Shadab Khan is captaincy material.

    I’m not convinced that Hasan, Faheem and Shadab are the same.

    They might socialise together.

    But Hasan has no future due both to his height and because he slogs like Afridi when he needed to learn to put a high price on his wicket.

    Faheem is different: the fact that his English county has just offered him a bigger contract makes me sceptical of his alleged issues.

    Shadab is different again: having seen his Test batting in England and South Africa I actually like his attitude. On the pitch he takes responsibility and grows while Azhar and Sarfraz and Shafiq wither and fail under the burden of responsibility.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    And yet Mickey Arthur thinks that Shadab Khan is captaincy material.

    I’m not convinced that Hasan, Faheem and Shadab are the same.

    They might socialise together.

    But Hasan has no future due both to his height and because he slogs like Afridi when he needed to learn to put a high price on his wicket.

    Faheem is different: the fact that his English county has just offered him a bigger contract makes me sceptical of his alleged issues.

    Shadab is different again: having seen his Test batting in England and South Africa I actually like his attitude. On the pitch he takes responsibility and grows while Azhar and Sarfraz and Shafiq wither and fail under the burden of responsibility.


    Shadab has looked awful against Sri Lanka C, but you expect him to keep it tight against top batters in their home conditions.


    You truly live in a fantasy world.

  77. #77
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    Looks like Misbah on to Shadab?

    Zahid Mahmood, a leg-spinner who in the past has been ignored by the selectors and coaches, is now under the consideration of Misbah who is not satisfied with the form of current team leggies, Yasir Shah and Shadab Khan.

    http://www.newindianexpress.com/spor...s-2047864.html


    For the latest updates on Cricket, follow @PakPassion on Twitter

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    Looks like Misbah on to Shadab?

    Zahid Mahmood, a leg-spinner who in the past has been ignored by the selectors and coaches, is now under the consideration of Misbah who is not satisfied with the form of current team leggies, Yasir Shah and Shadab Khan.

    http://www.newindianexpress.com/spor...s-2047864.html
    Zahid Mahmood should only play t20is, his list A and first class stats are poor. Shadab hasn't done badly in tests (he has played away only in alien conditions) and has batted well.

    Yasir should be dropped from the test squad for the Aussie series, he was horrbile there last time and in South Africa. He has also been average in the QeA trophy.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    Looks like Misbah on to Shadab?

    Zahid Mahmood, a leg-spinner who in the past has been ignored by the selectors and coaches, is now under the consideration of Misbah who is not satisfied with the form of current team leggies, Yasir Shah and Shadab Khan.

    http://www.newindianexpress.com/spor...s-2047864.html
    Yes, trying to get him out of that comfort zone he has been living in recently.



  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    Looks like Misbah on to Shadab?

    Zahid Mahmood, a leg-spinner who in the past has been ignored by the selectors and coaches, is now under the consideration of Misbah who is not satisfied with the form of current team leggies, Yasir Shah and Shadab Khan.

    http://www.newindianexpress.com/spor...s-2047864.html
    About time. Players like Shadab, Hasan Ali, Faheem Ashraf got a bit too comfortable thanks to Mickey Arthur's unquestioned backing. Kuddos to Misbah for giving these guys a kick up their backsides. In fact i have a feeling even Imad Wasim will have a tough time holding on to his spot if he does not perform consistently.


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