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  1. #1
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    PakPassion Debate: Mohammad Hafeez & Shoaib Malik needed for T20 World Cup (Sher Khan v Abdullah719)

    And on to our next hot topic!

    The contestants:

    For: @Sher Khan
    Against : @Abdullah719

    Let the debate begin - the floor belongs to the contestants - rest of the PPers please hold on until debate is officially be declared closed.


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  2. #2
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    My view is that Mohammad Hafeez and Shoaib Malik were integral in us becoming the number one T20 team. I can assure you that if both of these two were included in that Sri Lankan series, we would not have been whitewashed.

    I understand people's hate towards t hem as they are old and towards the end of their careers. But my view is that a shoe should be worn as long as it fits. Quite frankly, without Hafeez and Malik we await proper humiliation in the WT20.

    The younger talent cannot yet compete with the world's best. These two seniors bring some stability and match experience to the table. We will definetly beat the minnow teams, and chase 150 type targets with ease.

    The Bangladesh series proves me right as in both the games, Hafeez and Malik won man of the matches. Which proves they are still matchwinners.

  3. #3
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    Hafeez has a very poor record in T20 World Cups and in World Cups in general. He is a bottler on the big stage.

    Malik has a very poor record in countries like Australia, New Zealand, and England. He has always struggled against pacers, especially in conditions where there is a bit on offer for them.

    Despite the few alternatives, selecting these two is unlikely to pay dividends as seen on innumerable previous occasions.


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  4. #4
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    I disagree with your opinion that Hafeez is a bottler in World Cups. He was really good in the 2011 WC opening the batting and bowling for us. He has been decent in all the t20 world cups for us.

    Whilst, i can agree that Malik has a poor record in the mentioned countries. He is one of the most experienced t20 players in the world, and has the ability to command a run chase well.

    Both these players can of course also provide a few tidy overs and are very good fielders.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sher Khan View Post
    I disagree with your opinion that Hafeez is a bottler in World Cups. He was really good in the 2011 WC opening the batting and bowling for us. He has been decent in all the t20 world cups for us.

    Whilst, i can agree that Malik has a poor record in the mentioned countries. He is one of the most experienced t20 players in the world, and has the ability to command a run chase well.

    Both these players can of course also provide a few tidy overs and are very good fielders.
    Hafeez has one 50 in five T20 World Cups. That's exceptionally poor.

    He has played some useful knocks in World Cups like the 80-odd against England but nullifies that by being completely useless the rest of the time. It's all feast or famine for him. He might win you 1 in 10 matches but he might lose you a bunch as well. Extremely poor for an 'experienced' player.

    Malik brings experience and a calm head to the table but that won't be of much use if he can't play any good knocks against stronger teams. Pakistan being the #1 ranked T20I side can't pick players in the hope of beating Zimbabwe and Sri Lanka.


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  6. #6
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    Only debatees will post for now in this thread


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  7. #7
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    You are forgetting that Hafeez has been a valuable bowler in the t20 format for us. An average of 22 going at only 6.5 an over in t20s is exceptional. Moreover, he also used to bowl in the batting powerplay making crucial strikes upfront. His international t20 batting record might not reflect it but the fact is that he is a matchwinning batsman.

    Name batsmen you would include in place of these two?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sher Khan View Post
    You are forgetting that Hafeez has been a valuable bowler in the t20 format for us. An average of 22 going at only 6.5 an over in t20s is exceptional. Moreover, he also used to bowl in the batting powerplay making crucial strikes upfront. His international t20 batting record might not reflect it but the fact is that he is a matchwinning batsman.

    Name batsmen you would include in place of these two?
    I refuse to consider his bowling as a legitimate aspect of his game since he is always on the verge of being banned. Regardless, he has been less effective in recent times anyway. In the last 6 years, he has bowled less than 1 over per match in T20Is on average.

    Match-winning batsman is a very loose term. So was Afridi by some metric, and he was a much better T20I player than Hafeez. Hafeez has a SR of 117 in T20Is. And the only thing he has experience of in T20 World Cups is failure.

    24 matches
    20 average
    105 strike-rate
    1 fifty (vs BD)


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  9. #9
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    The argument is that Hafeez and Malik are needed for the t20 World Cup. I can assure you that if we had the likes of Rohit Sharma and Virat Kohli in Pakistan i would not have been debating "for" this argument. The truth is our alternatives like Shehzad, Umar Akmal and Asif Ali are utter trash.

    My argument is that these two players have experience, match awareness as well as the distinction of already being a part of the t20 wc winning side. i strongly believe they wil benefit Pakistan in the t20 world cup. We cannot go there without their experience. If we do, we will be humiliated badly.

    It will be the last we see of both of them anyways in International cricket. They will be aiming to end on a high note.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sher Khan View Post
    The argument is that Hafeez and Malik are needed for the t20 World Cup. I can assure you that if we had the likes of Rohit Sharma and Virat Kohli in Pakistan i would not have been debating "for" this argument. The truth is our alternatives like Shehzad, Umar Akmal and Asif Ali are utter trash.

    My argument is that these two players have experience, match awareness as well as the distinction of already being a part of the t20 wc winning side. i strongly believe they wil benefit Pakistan in the t20 world cup. We cannot go there without their experience. If we do, we will be humiliated badly.

    It will be the last we see of both of them anyways in International cricket. They will be aiming to end on a high note.
    Aiming to end on a high note doesn't really mean much because I think they just aren't good enough. Their mediocre careers are a testament to that.

    Yes, the alternatives aren't exactly awe-inspiring but rather than select 'seniors' in the hope that we can win games against weak teams, I'd rather just pick other batsmen who are likely to serve Pakistan for a longer period in future.


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  11. #11
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    The point is that no team picks two players who are close to 40 just in the hope that they will help to beat some weak teams. This is loser mentality and just shows why Pakistan cricket has struggled for so long. We settle for mediocrity.

    Hafeez and Malik have never achieved anything major for Pakistan and they never will. They are simply not that great as cricketers. Yes, they have experience, but nearing 40, their weaknesses will be amplified as well. Would the strong teams at the World Cup be worried in the slightest the moment these two came in to bat? I doubt it.


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  12. #12
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    Count the man of the match awards both have achieved in their careers. I can assure you the rest of the Pakistan cricket team would cumulatively not have as much man of the match awards.

    Truth is, whether we like it or not Hafeez and Malik are our best bets for the t20 wc.

    Furthermore, i see no worthy replacements for these two and unfortunately we cannot just take the captain Babar Azam by himself to the world cup and need a squad of 15. So yes we do need Hafeez and Malik in the squad.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sher Khan View Post
    Count the man of the match awards both have achieved in their careers. I can assure you the rest of the Pakistan cricket team would cumulatively not have as much man of the match awards.

    Truth is, whether we like it or not Hafeez and Malik are our best bets for the t20 wc.

    Furthermore, i see no worthy replacements for these two and unfortunately we cannot just take the captain Babar Azam by himself to the world cup and need a squad of 15. So yes we do need Hafeez and Malik in the squad.
    They have more Man of the Match awards than everyone else because they have been playing for 20 years. And in those 20 years, they haven't achieved anything of note besides MOTM awards here and there. Barely any contribution to any major victories.

    When you have to measure a player's value who has been playing for 20 years by their MOTM awards then the battle has already been lost.

    When they haven't achieved anything in their past 20 years, what makes you think they will do so at the twilight of their careers when people are on the decline? Besides one innings by Hafeez against England, what did they do in the 2019 World Cup?

    Shadab can bat higher up the order. Iftikhar will be in the squad after he did well in Australia, despite his poor PSL. Khushdil Shah is also in contention for selection in the middle-order. And there are other options as well.


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  14. #14
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    It seems that you are thinking of the wt20 as an opportunity for youngsters to be given a chance who will serve the country for years. This is Pakistan we are talking about. Those same players will be history after a short while.

    We went into the 2015wc with youngsters and what happened? Where is Ehsan Adil? Rahat Ali, Shehzad, Maqsood and Akmal are already history.

    OLD IS GOLD. Experience cannot be bought.

  15. #15
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    Reminder - other posters can only add their views once the debate is over.



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sher Khan View Post
    It seems that you are thinking of the wt20 as an opportunity for youngsters to be given a chance who will serve the country for years. This is Pakistan we are talking about. Those same players will be history after a short while.

    We went into the 2015wc with youngsters and what happened? Where is Ehsan Adil? Rahat Ali, Shehzad, Maqsood and Akmal are already history.

    OLD IS GOLD. Experience cannot be bought.
    Good that you provided the 2015 WC as an example. Remember who the worst player was? Younis Khan. Also selected for his 'experience'... And this is a guy who actually contributed to victories at his peak, such as leading the side to the 2009 T20 World Cup title, unlike Hafeez and Malik.

    Yes, I would rather go with younger players who may or may not be useful for Pakistan in the future rather than two over the hill players who have not and are unlikely to achieve anything major in their careers.


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  17. #17
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    WCT20 2020 squad should be,
    01. Sharjeel Khan
    02. Fakhar Zaman
    03. Babar Azam [C]
    04. Haider Ali
    05. Zeeshan Ashraf [wk]
    06. Khushdil Shah
    07. Shadab Khan
    08. Imad Wasim
    09. Mohammad Amir
    10. Shaheen Afridi
    11. Mohammad Hasnain
    12. Naseem Shah
    13. Hasan Ali
    14. Iftikhar Ahmad
    15. Asif Ali

  18. #18
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    I have said all that i wanted to say. We go into World Cups to win them not give hit or miss trials to youngsters (who probably will be history soon anyways). I acknowledge the fact that these two seniors might not have great records but they are matchwinners like we saw in the Bangladesh series. We will beat minnows for sure, with these two around. Hopefully we can beat some top teams too.

    I rest my case.

  19. #19
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    Malik and Hafeez are serial failures on the big stage. They don't deserve another chance to fail. Pakistan can't select a team 'hoping' that two 40-year-olds suddenly find another level after failing to contribute to Pakistan's victories while at their peak.

    Experience only matters when it is accompanied by quality. Unfortunately, both players are extremely flawed and have always been between mediocre and decent, never coming close to being world class or great players for Pakistan.

    Their 2019 World Cup performances are a testament to this. Shoaib Malik barely played a role with the bat. His most memorable moment was getting Stokes out. Hafeez played one good innings, and incredulously spent the rest of the matches being dismissed by part-timers in the most innocuous of ways. That he later thought he performed 'well' in the World Cup only served to show the extent of the problem.


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  20. #20
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    Ok all members - you can add your thoughts to this debate!


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  21. #21
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    If either of Malik and Hafeez had any shame or self respect, they would have at least retired after their abject failure in the 2019 World Cup. How long will we be hanging on to old mediocre players under the guise of "experience"? What good did it do us at the last world cup (or at most major tournaments). The sooner we overcome the "senior" mentality the better.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by zacattakk View Post
    If either of Malik and Hafeez had any shame or self respect, they would have at least retired after their abject failure in the 2019 World Cup. How long will we be hanging on to old mediocre players under the guise of "experience"? What good did it do us at the last world cup (or at most major tournaments). The sooner we overcome the "senior" mentality the better.
    Hafeez was under the impression that he performed well.

    "I don't know why you say I couldn't fulfill expectations (in the 2019 World Cup). I was the third-highest scorer for Pakistan, we won 5 matches and I was the man of the match in one. We were eliminated not due to bad performances, it was due to NRR."

    http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...ohammad-Hafeez


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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    Hafeez was under the impression that he performed well.

    "I don't know why you say I couldn't fulfill expectations (in the 2019 World Cup). I was the third-highest scorer for Pakistan, we won 5 matches and I was the man of the match in one. We were eliminated not due to bad performances, it was due to NRR."

    http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...ohammad-Hafeez
    Yes, sadly that shows just how delusional these oldies are, and how low they set the bar. You perform in one match, and thats a good tournament performance for him. That is why we needed a strong coach and/or chief selector to say to their face: "As a senior player, you FAILED in this tournament. Your overall career performance is barely average and you are not getting any younger. We will be moving on to younger talented batsmen now to give them the opportunity and experience to stake a claim before the next major tournament. You are free to play domestic cricket if a team feels you merit a place but it is unlikely you will be able to gain a spot at the international level for the foreseeable future".

  24. #24
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    Hafeez averages 20 in 5 t 20 world cups .
    He averages 27 in 3 50 over world cups .
    In the last World Cup in 2019 where his “experience “‘was so much needed he averaged 32!

    Yes he is experienced but the only thing he is experienced in is being “mediocre “ in world events . With such a record in ICC tournaments how can even suggest he should be in the team.

    World events are not for youngsters but neither are they farewell parties for undeserved “seniors”.

  25. #25
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    MoHa and Malik will leave their mark on PCT at least for 5 years, if some how they decide to leave it this year. These two bang average bits & pieces cricketers earned 2 decades of career selling bluffs after bluffs - sometimes by the name of multi facet skills, sometimes experience, sometimes for better combination and sometimes for the excuse of lack of options. One by one players like Umar, Kamran, Maqsood, Amin, Haris have lost the battle to these two for a middle order spot which has created such a massive hollow that now PCT management is almost forced to carry them.

    I read lot about MoHa's heroics in CT2017 Final - the bitter truth is that, his mighty "power play" managed to take PAK to 338/4, instead of 360. Otherwise, the start that Fakhar gave that day and IND running out of bowlers, most teams would have ended up scoring 375, from 200/2 after 33'1 (when Malik entered) or at least to 360, from 247/3 after 39'4, when MoHa entered.

    For best part of a decade, they kept holding most crucial two middle order spots for performance very similar to our Mahmudullah (actually worse, but PP tends to judge individual player's contribution, based on team achievement), and that guy Mahmud is at least 6 years younger to both of them, yet already has lost his spot in BD ODI/Test team, despite the absence of two most experienced middle order batsmen.

    Just to give a perspective, since 01 April 2011, this is what the stats tell for three players (Game - Run -Avg - SR -100/50)

    MoHa: 146 - 4989 - 37.79/80.99 - 10/30
    Malik: 95 - 2346 - 35.01/89.64 - 2/13
    Mahmudullah: 123 - 2968 - 36.19/81.11 - 3/17

    Now, that stats is massively misleading, because these two cunning guys, backed on their two decades long experience have cashed mighty on the hopeless SRL attack in that period in SRL or UAE + the other free bees. If I run the same stats with 8 teams - AUS, ENG, IND, SAF, WIN, NZL & BD/PAK (respectively), that same table looks like -

    MoHa: 93 - 2959 - 34.01/79.62 - 3/22
    Malik: 62 - 1455 - 27.98/82.01 - 1/6
    Mahmudullah: 69 - 17 - 1735 - 38.55/82.38 - 3/8

    *Here, I must mention that apart from the 6 other sides, MoHa/Malik's stats include games against BD, and Mahmud's stats include PAK - those who know the game, should understand the impact.

    That probably is enough to expose how MoHa/Malik have kept their spot intact, keeping every potential threat at bay. This is a day-light robbery, which will cost PAK in 2023 WC, BIG TIME.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    MoHa and Malik will leave their mark on PCT at least for 5 years, if some how they decide to leave it this year. These two bang average bits & pieces cricketers earned 2 decades of career selling bluffs after bluffs - sometimes by the name of multi facet skills, sometimes experience, sometimes for better combination and sometimes for the excuse of lack of options. One by one players like Umar, Kamran, Maqsood, Amin, Haris have lost the battle to these two for a middle order spot which has created such a massive hollow that now PCT management is almost forced to carry them.

    I read lot about MoHa's heroics in CT2017 Final - the bitter truth is that, his mighty "power play" managed to take PAK to 338/4, instead of 360. Otherwise, the start that Fakhar gave that day and IND running out of bowlers, most teams would have ended up scoring 375, from 200/2 after 33'1 (when Malik entered) or at least to 360, from 247/3 after 39'4, when MoHa entered.

    For best part of a decade, they kept holding most crucial two middle order spots for performance very similar to our Mahmudullah (actually worse, but PP tends to judge individual player's contribution, based on team achievement), and that guy Mahmud is at least 6 years younger to both of them, yet already has lost his spot in BD ODI/Test team, despite the absence of two most experienced middle order batsmen.

    Just to give a perspective, since 01 April 2011, this is what the stats tell for three players (Game - Run -Avg - SR -100/50)

    MoHa: 146 - 4989 - 37.79/80.99 - 10/30
    Malik: 95 - 2346 - 35.01/89.64 - 2/13
    Mahmudullah: 123 - 2968 - 36.19/81.11 - 3/17

    Now, that stats is massively misleading, because these two cunning guys, backed on their two decades long experience have cashed mighty on the hopeless SRL attack in that period in SRL or UAE + the other free bees. If I run the same stats with 8 teams - AUS, ENG, IND, SAF, WIN, NZL & BD/PAK (respectively), that same table looks like -

    MoHa: 93 - 2959 - 34.01/79.62 - 3/22
    Malik: 62 - 1455 - 27.98/82.01 - 1/6
    Mahmudullah: 69 - 17 - 1735 - 38.55/82.38 - 3/8

    *Here, I must mention that apart from the 6 other sides, MoHa/Malik's stats include games against BD, and Mahmud's stats include PAK - those who know the game, should understand the impact.

    That probably is enough to expose how MoHa/Malik have kept their spot intact, keeping every potential threat at bay. This is a day-light robbery, which will cost PAK in 2023 WC, BIG TIME.
    Amazing analysis and stats. I actually never knew those stats, I knew Malik and Hafeez bashed SL a lot but didn't know it was to that extent .. damn. Both need to be chucked out of the team right away.

  27. #27
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    If I was the selector none of these two will play the world cup but I reakon both will be picked for squad but only one will start and that will be hafeez becouse he can bowl off spin

  28. #28
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    Just noticed this thread , Abdullah bhai you have argued your case very well - your posts have actually made me emotional and convinced me that I’ve not gone insane and paranoid — just one 50 having played no less then 5 T20 World Cups , that for a player who’s supposedly better in T20 then other formats , sums it all up really without even mentioning any name

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    Malik has a more calming influence, it has to be Malik. Hafeez is too inconsistent

    Babar
    Z Ashraf
    Haider
    Malik
    Ifti
    Khushdil
    Imad
    Shadab
    Wahab
    Shaheen
    Amir


    Full credit to Micky Arthur for realizing Babar Azam was born to bat at 3 in all formats.

  30. #30
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    Please add your vote to say who won this debate between Sher Khan and Abdullah719


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  31. #31
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    I won’t vote - I hardly vote in PP. But here bro Sher was fighting a lost battle, even before the war stated.


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