Indians/Hindi-speakers: Why do you use "f" instead of "ph" used in Urdu:

[DHONI183]

Online dictionaries suggest otherwise then why is it pronounced that way? An example possibly is the word "Phool" ('flower') from Urdu which is called "Fool" in Hindi. "Phir" becomes "Fir" and so on.

Just thought that it was an interesting thing to ask about.........

P.S.: Another interesting thing is the usage of "Z" and "J" absolutely contrary to Urdu. For example, "Darwaaza" ('door') as "Darwaaja" in Hindi, and "Jadojehadd" ('struggle'?) as "Zadozehadd".

[Looney]

begum becomes beGHum

[Khabri420]

'Feer kuch kuch honay laga'

Zaroor = Jaroor
Zindabad = Jindabad
Zaleel = Jaleel
Zor = Jor

[Looney]

Jahil = Zahil :stylishexecutive

[ITGuy]

So its zalebi and not Jalebi ?

[iHammad]

IPL Jindabad!

[Khabri420]

I think Bangladeshis do the opposite. They would say Zalebi.

It is , however, Jalebi

[DHONI183]

Please send me Jalebis.......

[Looney]

mere ko thooori si zalebi dene ka na

[dps2009]

spot on dhoni. def a pet peeve of mine when people mispronounce urdu words

also commonly butchered- anything with a kh- like khan or khushi or khwaab..also ghalib becomes gaalib


and jaheer khan...

[DHONI183]

Originally Posted by Looney mere ko thooori si zalebi dene ka na

Meiney pehley maangi thi (I asked for it first) .

Originally Posted by dps2009 spot on dhoni. def a pet peeve of mine when people mispronounce urdu words also commonly butchered- anything with a kh- like khan or khushi or khwaab..also ghalib becomes gaalib and jaheer khan...

The ironical thing with the swapping of "Z" for "J" and vice versa is actually supported by the online dictionaries, as it says "Darwaaja" for 'door'. This is not the case with words such as "Phir" as the dictionary puts it right.

[Dr. Schaden Freud]

Originally Posted by DHONI183 Online dictionaries suggest otherwise then why is it pronounced that way? An example possibly is the word "Phool" ('flower') from Urdu which is called "Fool" in Hindi. "Phir" becomes "Fir" and so on. Just thought that it was an interesting thing to ask about......... P.S.: Another interesting thing is the usage of "Z" and "J" absolutely contrary to Urdu. For example, "Darwaaza" ('door') as "Darwaaja" in Hindi, and "Jadojehadd" ('struggle'?) as "Zadozehadd".

I really don't think any native Hindi speaker uses Fool or Darwaaja or Jadojehadd, although, I have seen multiple use of Fir.

Most of the people in India learn Hindi as a second or third language and there is always some influence of their mother-tongue on they way they pronounce Hindi words. Hence, you get all these aberrations.

[AZ]

mere ko tere ko mere ko tere ko mere ko tere ko mere ko tere ko mere ko tere ko mere ko tere ko mere ko tere ko mere ko tere ko mere ko tere ko mere ko tere ko mere ko tere ko mere ko tere ko mere ko tere ko mere ko tere ko mere ko tere ko mere ko tere ko mere ko tere ko mere ko tere ko mere ko tere ko mere ko

[DHONI183]

Originally Posted by Dr. Schaden Freud I really don't think any native Hindi speaker uses Fool or Darwaaja or Jadojehadd, although, I have seen multiple use of Fir. Most of the people in India learn Hindi as a second or third language and there is always some influence of their mother-tongue on they way they pronounce Hindi words. Hence, you get all these aberrations.

Sunil Shetty is the biggest culprit on earth for this!

[dps2009]

oh i have seen plenty of people in the north say fool for phool, gajal for ghazal etc. and the worst part is when bollywood actors butcher these words( and even singers ).
part of the reason is the decline of urdu as a language in india since independence. entire generations have grown up thinking that their misprounciation is the correct way to say the word.

as to the mere ko tere ko, tune ( instead of tumne), that is pretty much delhi lingo, i used to use it growing up ( cringes), punjabi influence on hindi i think.

[ITGuy]

Well what can I say, We Indians like 'f' a lot

[DHONI183]

Originally Posted by Khabri420 'Feer kuch kuch honay laga' Zaroor = Jaroor Zindabad = Jindabad Zaleel = Jaleel Zor = Jor

Originally Posted by Khabri420 I think Bangladeshis do the opposite. They would say Zalebi. It is , however, Jalebi

How, then, about Ramij Raza in this case!

[AZ]

Gavaskar always called Ijaaj

[ITGuy]

Originally Posted by AZ Gavaskar always called Ijaaj

Well, Gavaskar messes up VVS name too, whenever he choses to say the full name that is

[DHONI183]

Bump!!!

It was needed considering a few recent posts by Indian PPers.

[Looney]

maybe they do not have phay in Hindi so they use fay



you know how Arabs do not have pay so they call us Bakistanis

[DHONI183]

Originally Posted by Looney maybe they do not have phay in Hindi so they use fay

No, it does exist. It just that they pronounce it wrongly.

The word "Phool" ('flower') is written like this in their script:

फूल

The word "Phir" ('then') is written like this in their script:

फिर

Don´t know whether it is a combination of two letters or it is only one. An Indian can confirm that I hope.

Originally Posted by Looney you know how Arabs do not have pay so they call us Bakistanis

I find it so funny!

[dps2009]

if you put a bindi under the hindi Fa it should be Ph sound

http://www.rizahmad.com/Docs/Urdu%20in%20Devanagari.pdf

[DHONI183]

Originally Posted by dps2009 if you put a bindi under the hindi Fa it should be Ph sound http://www.rizahmad.com/Docs/Urdu%20in%20Devanagari.pdf

Thanks for sharing this.

By the way, does a "Bindi" exist in those words that I posted above (post # 22) ?

[Geordie Ahmed]

The two most annoying language related things are as follows

The replacing Z with J

and the Arabs replacing P with B

[dps2009]

Originally Posted by DHONI183 Thanks for sharing this. By the way, does a "Bindi" exist in those words that I posted above (post # 22) ?

if i wrote phool in hindi i would put the bindi below the fa, so yes it does exist for the knowledgeable

but if people think fool is the way to say phool then they would'nt bother with the bindi now will they

[dps2009]

Originally Posted by Geordie Ahmed The two most annoying language related things are as follows The replacing Z with J and the Arabs replacing P with B

also replacing Q sound with k ( muqadmma as mukkadma etc)


and butchering easy words like khan

[Looney]

Originally Posted by dps2009 if you put a bindi under the hindi Fa it should be Ph sound http://www.rizahmad.com/Docs/Urdu%20in%20Devanagari.pdf

bindi under the hindi - lol cool



we call it a nuqta

[Looney]

maybe they try to say everything like gore

i mean we still call places in India the same old way , bombay , dilli , calcutta but they changed it to mumbaaaaaaaaaye , delli and kolkatta

[Equinox]

Originally Posted by Khabri420 I think Bangladeshis do the opposite. They would say Zalebi. It is , however, Jalebi

We actually call it jilapi.

[DHONI183]

Originally Posted by Equinox We actually call it jilapi.

Interesting.......

[afzaal1988]

urdu- Larka
hindi-ladka
english-boy

i dont understand why they write it like ladka but say it like larka. also pakar liya(hindi)pakad liya

doesnt make sense to me

[Looney]

i absolutely hate it when they say main ne us ko c-h-o-d dia

it is CHORR with an R people

[DHONI183]

Originally Posted by afzaal1988 urdu- Larka hindi-ladka english-boy i dont understand why they write it like ladka but say it like larka. also pakar liya(hindi)pakad liya doesnt make sense to me

Originally Posted by Looney i absolutely hate it when they say main ne us ko c-h-o-d dia it is CHORR with an R people

!

The fact is that the alphabet ڑ doesn´t exist in English and thus they use either of "R" or "D".

[dps2009]

Originally Posted by Looney i absolutely hate it when they say main ne us ko c-h-o-d dia it is CHORR with an R people

you have a point

[afzaal1988]

Originally Posted by DHONI183 ! The fact is that the alphabet ڑ doesn´t exist in English and thus they use either of "R" or "D".

well they dont use R in ladka do they? or even in choar(i m not gona write like they do because i might get in trouble by mods)

[Looney]

they censored it anyway so you cannot use it

[DHONI183]

Yesterday, on the set of "Kaun Banega Crorepati" Season Five, Amitabh Bachchan used the word "Jilla´h" for 'district'.

[RWAC]

Again the same thing. Originally, Hindi did NOT have the sound of "Z" or "Ph". They had sounds of "J" and "F". So, literary scholars starting adding a bindi (dot) at the bottom of the alphabet J and F to denote the sound of "Z" and "Ph". Just like someone posted the pics above.

However, most people who learn to read and write Hindi never bother with this distinction. We are taught it in school but it's not a big deal. And then also comes the influence from how you hear it around you. More often than not, when you hear it as "J" and "F", people tend to just forget the whole distinction between the "J" and the "J with the dot" and start using J and F.

However, I have always been divided on the use of Phal/Fal. Can someone give me the origins of this word? When I read the Bhagavad Gita, the word for fruit in Sanskrit is actually Phal/Fal. So that means the word was present even before the Islamic invasion. And knowing there is not the "Ph" sound in Sanskrit (despite some people pronouncing it as Ph and most people writing it as Ph - a recent thing), I think it is correctly pronounced as Fal. I tried searching if Phal has a Persian origin to it, but couldn't find it. Or it could be that since Fal was present in Sanskirt, but it was adopted in Urdu with the "Ph" sound?

[DHONI183]

Originally Posted by RWAC Again the same thing. Originally, Hindi did NOT have the sound of "Z" or "Ph". They had sounds of "J" and "F". So, literary scholars starting adding a bindi (dot) at the bottom of the alphabet J and F to denote the sound of "Z" and "Ph". Just like someone posted the pics above. However, most people who learn to read and write Hindi never bother with this distinction. We are taught it in school but it's not a big deal. And then also comes the influence from how you hear it around you. More often than not, when you hear it as "J" and "F", people tend to just forget the whole distinction between the "J" and the "J with the dot" and start using J and F. However, I have always been divided on the use of Phal/Fal. Can someone give me the origins of this word? When I read the Bhagavad Gita, the word for fruit in Sanskrit is actually Phal/Fal. So that means the word was present even before the Islamic invasion. And knowing there is not the "Ph" sound in Sanskrit (despite some people pronouncing it as Ph and most people writing it as Ph - a recent thing), I think it is correctly pronounced as Fal. I tried searching if Phal has a Persian origin to it, but couldn't find it. Or it could be that since Fal was present in Sanskirt, but it was adopted in Urdu with the "Ph" sound?

A very good and informative post which contained a lot of unkown stuff.

I think, since you said that "Fal" is a Sanskrit word, it probably is the case that it was adopted so in Urdu as well. The Arabic word for 'fruit' is totally a different one.

Thanks once again!

[DHONI183]

Originally Posted by RWAC Again the same thing. Originally, Hindi did NOT have the sound of "Z" or "Ph". They had sounds of "J" and "F". So, literary scholars starting adding a bindi (dot) at the bottom of the alphabet J and F to denote the sound of "Z" and "Ph". Just like someone posted the pics above.

So basically it is Anna Hajare?

[cricket_fever]

Originally Posted by DHONI183 So basically it is Anna Hajare?

a bit off topic..................but i always though Anna Hazare was a woman until i saw his pic

never understood how a man was name anna --- thought "she" would hv been a christian indian lady lol

[RWAC]

Originally Posted by DHONI183 So basically it is Anna Hajare?

Nope it is Hazare still. There is no such (similar) word in Sanskrit. The word for thousand is different in Hindi/Sanskrit - Sahasra.

This is most definitely a derivation of the Persian word - Hazaar.

[RWAC]

Originally Posted by cricket_fever a bit off topic..................but i always though Anna Hazare was a woman until i saw his pic never understood how a man was name anna --- thought "she" would hv been a christian indian lady lol

Lol I don't blame you. I used to call a Tamil friend of mine "Anna" and this Ethiopian guy thought I called him "Anne"

Actually, it's not pronounced like the English "Anna" but "Ann-Na" (a protracted N sound after A). It means "brother".

[DHONI183]

Originally Posted by RWAC Nope it is Hazare still. There is no such (similar) word in Sanskrit. The word for thousand is different in Hindi/Sanskrit - Sahasra. This is most definitely a derivation of the Persian word - Hazaar.

But the Wikipedia page says that in Marathi the pronunciation should read Anna Hajare.......

Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Hazare

[RWAC]

Originally Posted by DHONI183 But the Wikipedia page says that in Marathi the pronunciation should read Anna Hajare....... Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Hazare

Hmm..I looked into it. Most likely seems that mistake that people make. I know dead sure there is no word "Hajaar" in Hindi that is equivalent to Hazaar (thousand). I tried searching if "Hajare" is a caste/ethnic name. It didn't give me any results (all linked to "Hazare"). Most likely the person editing it wrote it the way Marathis would say it i.e. with a J and not a Z. Doesn't make it correct.

[DHONI183]

Originally Posted by RWAC Hmm..I looked into it. Most likely seems that mistake that people make. I know dead sure there is no word "Hajaar" in Hindi that is equivalent to Hazaar (thousand). I tried searching if "Hajare" is a caste/ethnic name. It didn't give me any results (all linked to "Hazare"). Most likely the person editing it wrote it the way Marathis would say it i.e. with a J and not a Z. Doesn't make it correct.

Thanks for your further help. It is probably a mistake.

[ITGuy]

Watch from 05:35

[DHONI183]

Originally Posted by ITGuy Watch from 05:35

Is there anything special in it which I might have missed out on?

[DHONI183]

Originally Posted by DHONI183 Originally Posted by ITGuy Watch from 05:35 Is there anything special in it which I might have missed out on?

Just re-checked video. It is awesome from 05:35 !

[DHONI183]

My latest 'Bakra' is our own PP-er Freelance_Cricketer (http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/member.php?u=65183).

Posts:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...21&postcount=8

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...8&postcount=13

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...6&postcount=82

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...&postcount=133

I guess there are only three possibilities now on PP:

1. I will leave PP for his sake.

2. He will leave PP to avoid getting annoyed.

3. He will learn it (less likely of course).........

Originally Posted by AZ Gavaskar always called Ijaaj

Sunil Gavaskar referred to Aizaz Cheema as Aijaj Cheema. So many years and he hasn´t picked it......

[moumotta]

Just curious about another thread title, what does Baisiti mean

[DHONI183]

Originally Posted by moumotta Just curious about another thread title, what does Baisiti mean

You are probably referring to the following thread......

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...d.php?t=150272

To my knowledge the correct word should be "Bey-izzatee" ('Insult' or 'Non-respect to be exact literally) which is derived from the word "Izzat" ('Respect').

So that I think isn´t correct either.

[Centurion]

There's a bangladeshi player called Jahirul Islam.

[DHONI183]

Originally Posted by Centurion There's a bangladeshi player called Jahirul Islam.

Yeah, they mess it up as well.......

[DHONI183]

Originally Posted by DHONI183 You are probably referring to the following thread...... http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...d.php?t=150272 To my knowledge the correct word should be "Bey-izzatee" ('Insult' or 'Non-respect to be exact literally) which is derived from the word "Izzat" ('Respect'). So that I think isn´t correct either.

'Disrespect' is of course the better one but I used 'Non' to explain the "Bey" of Urdu.

[DHONI183]

The following deserves to be highlight here......

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...postcount=6168

.....

[moumotta]

You can add j and z to the list. Indians tend to mix the two with a bias towards j.

It appears Pakistanis do the same but their bias tends towards z. Example, I see the word 'zaat' used frequently. The correct spelling (and pronunciation) should be jaat.

[DHONI183]

Originally Posted by moumotta You can add j and z to the list. Indians tend to mix the two with a bias towards j.

If you read the opening post carefully, it is also mentioned there.

Originally Posted by moumotta It appears Pakistanis do the same but their bias tends towards z. Example, I see the word 'zaat' used frequently. The correct spelling (and pronunciation) should be jaat.

Any sources? I am now interested in this because I myself use the word "Zaat".

[moumotta]

Hindi word jaati often shortened to jaat, derived from the Sanskrit jāta, “born” or “brought into existence,” and indicates a form of existence determined by birth

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/301596/jati

[DHONI183]

Originally Posted by moumotta Hindi word jaati often shortened to jaat, derived from the Sanskrit jāta, “born” or “brought into existence,” and indicates a form of existence determined by birth http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/301596/jati

Very interesting....... Thanks but I don´t think I can adapt it that easily.

[moumotta]

Originally Posted by DHONI183 Very interesting....... Thanks but I don´t think I can adapt it that easily.

No one needs to change. Words mean what the speaker and the hearer understand them to be. Phool or fool does not matter as long as the users know what they mean.

[Looney]

How come Indians pronounce the english Z fine but always end up saying Jaheer Khan ?

[RWAC]

^ Because he's our very own "Jaheer". No feeling of familiarity calling him Zaheer.

[Looney]

Jyada much much nahi karne ka kia ?

[RWAC]

Abbe tu kyun jabardasti shaana ban raha hai be?

[ElRaja]

Originally Posted by moumotta Hindi word jaati often shortened to jaat, derived from the Sanskrit jāta, “born” or “brought into existence,” and indicates a form of existence determined by birth http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/301596/jati

i didnt know this, will pbly still say it zaat.

[Looney]

Originally Posted by RWAC Abbe tu kyun jabardasti shaana ban raha hai be?

bhai ki shanpati akkha mumbai maiN world famous hai bole tou

[lafz_puchnevala]

Originally Posted by DHONI183 You are probably referring to the following thread...... http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...d.php?t=150272 To my knowledge the correct word should be "Bey-izzatee" ('Insult' or 'Non-respect to be exact literally) which is derived from the word "Izzat" ('Respect'). So that I think isn´t correct either.

In that case, what does 'be-lihaaz' mean?

Thanks!

[RWAC]

Originally Posted by lafz_puchnevala In that case, what does 'be-lihaaz' mean? Thanks!

Lihaaz means "regard". So be-lihaaz would be disregard. Mostly used to describe a person.

Ex. Someone who says things without giving a consideration to the setting/people around him - belihaaz.

[lafz_puchnevala]

A very interesting conversation indeed. Am very surprised that the 'fa' sound is from Sanskrit. Had always thought that it is Perso-Arabic in origin.

And to clear things up, adding the bindi below 'ja' and 'pha' makes them 'za' and 'fa'. This of course extends to other letters as well like 'ka' which becomes 'qa' with the dot below. But these are normally not emphasised in Hindi speech and in writing but writing or saying 'ja' instead of 'za' and 'pha' instead of 'fa' in incorrect situations would normally be considered wrong in Standard Hindi Speech and Writing.

[Sidcricfan]

There are different accents you see. Like Punjabis pronounce "prayas"(effort) as "paryas".

[DHONI183]

Just tweeted this thread to a friend who used the word "jaroor" over there.....

[Looney]

Indians , how would you say this ? Faakhta phur se urr gayi

Phakta fur se ud gayi ?

[DHONI183]

Originally Posted by Looney Indians , how would you say this ? Faakhta phur se urr gayi Phakta fur se ud gayi ?

Wonderful, brilliant question for Indians!