God vs The Child Abuse

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by Garuda Seriously ???? Toddlers are being molested by old men so that those toddlers will go to heaven ??? And I am amazed to read this A child is tested for his patience when he/she is getting abused/raped ??? I just don't have anything to say about this kind of religious scholar's version. So god is sitting and watching molestation and patience of 2-3 year olds ??? Wonderful.

I think you are misrepresenting his words.

In Islam there is no test for children. Only once an a person becomes an adult do they have to account for their deeds.

The test is on humanity(adults) who have been given the tools to create a world where children are not harmed.

As for why God allows this to happen. He is the owner of everything he creates and the most wise.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by humzy not necessarily, ive read the writings of many religious people who use science as a way to further interpret the world and their religion.. Its usually just the backward people who dont want to move out of the middle ages or status quo who seem to be anti science..

Fair go, I should have said "some but not all religious people" instead of "religious people."

Darwin didnt need god to explain himself, he had the theory of evolution, yet he was a known agnostic and not an athiest. why do you think that is?

Dunno. I thought he was Christian. Enlighten me.

[Garuda]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC I think you are misrepresenting his words. In Islam there is no test for children. Only once an a person becomes an adult do they have to account for their deeds. The test is on humanity(adults) who have been given the tools to create a world where children are not harmed. As for why God allows this to happen. He is the owner of everything he creates and the most wise.

Basically, no answer available to the question "Why?"

But then it creates a the question that does he really exist then as we donno why he does all these?

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by Garuda Basically, no answer available to the question "Why?" But then it creates a the question that does he really exist then as we donno why he does all these?

He allows humans to live how they wish, that's why. He has given us the tools to live without any hunger, murder or abuse in society. I think that's very merciful of God giving this to us. If we humans fail and live in other ways which harm society, it's only our own fault.

If people want God to intervene every time a child is abused then what about the natural world?

Should God intervene and save the life of an Elephant's baby from a predator Lion?

[Garuda]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC He allows humans to live how they wish, that's why. He has given us the tools to live without any hunger, murder or abuse in society. I think that's very merciful of God giving this to us. If we humans fail and live in other ways which harm society, it's only our own fault. If people want God to intervene every time a child is abused then what about the natural world? Should God intervene and save the life of an Elephant's baby from a predator Lion?

This is what you understood and think using your mind. Don't that again fail the description that he knows and we donno why ?

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by Garuda This is what you understood and think using your mind. Don't that again fail the description that he knows and we donno why ?

Of course as a relatively weak creature in creation we can never ever get anywhere close to understanding the knowledge and wisdom of God. It's very much logical we can't as God is an all powerful ,all wise creator who has created endless creatures and worlds. We must concentrate on what we do know. We can end hunger in the world if human beings joined together to achieve this goal. Similarly it is also possible to very much minimise abuse of children, women or the elderly. We have the tools. If we don't use them we are to blame.

[Garuda]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC Of course as a relatively weak creature in creation we can never ever get anywhere close to understanding the knowledge and wisdom of God. It's very much logical we can't as God is an all powerful ,all wise creator who has created endless creatures and worlds. We must concentrate on what we do know. We can end hunger in the world if human beings joined together to achieve this goal. Similarly it is also possible to very much minimise abuse of children, women or the elderly. We have the tools. If we don't use them we are to blame.

Thats how all the confusion. In one sentence we say we can't understand why and how he does it.

But in other we day, he does it when we want to credit him but when we don't want to discredit we say, he is not ought to do it.

So, its people who are just trying to project God in a way how they want to believe him. No fact.

[Warfare]

Originally Posted by talha3 Do you think heaven (assuming it exists) is just a short vacation to somewhere exotic? It's multiple times better than any pleasure in this world, and it's infinite/forever. Similarly, the fire in hell is multiple times hotter than any fire in this world. The torture in 'Toddlers being molested' for however long they are is virtually nothing compared with the punishment of hell the guilty will get. Everyone will get their rightful justice.

Eternity in a pit of burning fire is not justice. It's torture.

Is God a sadist?

[Sufi]

Originally Posted by Warfare Eternity in a pit of burning fire is not justice. It's torture. Is God a sadist?

So the dude who is burning in the pit of fire, he might have committed murder and killed someone's son. So, its torture to punish this certain man for doing this crime, or is it not justice being served? What about the innocent person who was murdered, will justice not be served for his family?

[James]

Originally Posted by Sufi So the dude who is burning in the pit of fire, he might have committed murder and killed someone's son. So, its torture to punish this certain man for doing this crime, or is it not justice being served? What about the innocent person who was murdered, will justice not be served for his family?

The only problem is, we are told that people can go to hell for a lot less than murder, rape or theft.

[Sufi]

Originally Posted by James Stop being hostile. This is a needless post. Every other post in this thread has merit and everyone is here to have a mature debate. If you want to be involved, you have to post in the same way you were posting earlier in the thread. Not like this.

I'm just putting it out there before someone feels its necessary to ridicule and point fingers at people for believing in religion. (It's happened on other forums)

[Warfare]

Originally Posted by Sufi So the dude who is burning in the pit of fire, he might have committed murder and killed someone's son. So, its torture to punish this certain man for doing this crime, or is it not justice being served? What about the innocent person who was murdered, will justice not be served for his family?

No matter what, infinite punishment in hell is not justice for a finite number of 'sins' in the real world.

It's the mainstream Islamic belief that non-muslims (including good ones) will go to hell.

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by Warfare No matter what, infinite punishment in hell is not justice for a finite number of 'sins' in the real world. It's the mainstream Islamic belief that non-muslims (including good ones) will go to hell.

How can you as a human being who was created by an all powerful God know better than him what justice is? Shouldn't it be up to God to set down what is 'good', 'evil' or 'just'?

[Warfare]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC How can you as a human being who was created by an all powerful God know better than him what justice is? Shouldn't it be up to God to set down what is 'good', 'evil' or 'just'?

Every religion has their rules on what is good, evil and justice and most of the time, they don't make any sense or downright illogical.

As a human, justice for us isn't set in stone. Should a person who commits treason get life in prison, capital punishment or no punishment? Peoples' opinions vary. And the concept of justice evolves overtime.

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by Warfare Every religion has their rules on what is good, evil and justice and most of the time, they don't make any sense or downright illogical.

Sure some are, some are not.

My question was very specific. Let me clarify.

Can a human being know better than the Creator what is good or just? Yes or No?

[Warfare]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC Sure some are, some are not. My question was very specific. Let me clarify. Can a human being know better than the Creator what is good or just? Yes or No?

Probably not. But no one knows what the 'creator' wants. And people who follow different religions claim they know exactly what God wants, which is not true.

You think that non-muslims will go to hell but many others would disagree with you.

[Sufi]

Originally Posted by Warfare Every religion has their rules on what is good, evil and justice and most of the time, they don't make any sense or downright illogical. As a human, justice for us isn't set in stone. Should a person who commits treason get life in prison, capital punishment or no punishment? Peoples' opinions vary. And the concept of justice evolves overtime.

And I'm not sure of whether or not you know the moral laws in Islam, but is it illogical someone should be punished for murder, rape and child abuse, and someone who performed good deeds, donated his money to the poor and kept away from these bad acts should get rewarded? Isn't that what happens in society? People get noble peace prizes for contributing to society, whereas people get life in prison for first degree murder!

Which is why as Muslims we believe that the process of justice being served and the final decision is best left to God.

We believe that God created us, and we will not let our human mind question the creator's.

[Sufi]

Originally Posted by Warfare Probably not. But no one knows what the 'creator' wants. And people who follow different religions claim they know exactly what God wants, which is not true. You think that non-muslims will go to hell but many others would disagree with you.

In Islam, it's very simple. There are only 5 things God (the creator which you're referring to) wants:

1. The 5 Daily prayers
2. Zakat (Giving charity)
3. Fasting (The importance of this I'm sure you know)
4. Pilgrimage to Mecca
5. Acceptance of God as one and Muhammad being his messenger

[Warfare]

Originally Posted by Sufi And I'm not sure of whether or not you know the moral laws in Islam, but is it illogical someone should be punished for murder, rape and child abuse, and someone who performed good deeds, donated his money to the poor and kept away from these bad acts should get rewarded? Isn't that what happens in society? People get noble peace prizes for contributing to society, whereas people get life in prison for first degree murder! Which is why as Muslims we believe that the process of justice being served and the final decision is best left to God. We believe that God created us, and we will not let our human mind question the creator's.

The major problem arises when you believe that good people will go to hell i.e. the people who follow a different religion, or people who worship an idol, or people who apostatise.

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by Warfare Probably not. But no one knows what the 'creator' wants. And people who follow different religions claim they know exactly what God wants, which is not true.

I think logic would dictate the creator would have more knowledge than his creation. I can't see any probability in this at all.

You think that non-muslims will go to hell but many others would disagree with you.

Only those who reject the message of Islam knowingly. The Quran is very clear. These are the rules of God not me.

Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account. 3:19

[Sufi]

Originally Posted by Warfare The major problem arises when you believe that good people will go to hell i.e. the people who follow a different religion, or people who worship an idol, or people who apostatise.

I understand where you're coming from and I respect it fully.

Everyone has a right to religion but the thing with Islam is that it's not only a religion, it's a way of life - something far different than all other religions if you observe closely.

For example, look at most Christians, I'm not going to generalize but from what I've seen, they only go to church on Sundays and that is the only day for them where they are actively engaged in their religion. In islam, every second of our lives we are actively engaged in religion.

We believe as muslims that this world is a test for mankind, to see what kind of religion and which true path they will follow. God himself in the Qu'ran has stated that we must be respectful toward other religions, we must not try to forcibly convert others to the religion and that we must treat mankind generously. See how forgiving and merciful God is (in Islam's view)?

[Sufi]

It has also been stated that the best way to bring others into the religion of Islam is to be generous and nice to others. There was a story about an Old Lady and Prophet Muhammad. The Old Lady would ridicule Prophet Muhammad for believing in this supposed God, even threw garbage in front of his house, called him names etc. But Prophet Muhammad with his immense character, stayed respectful towards the Old Lady and remained pious in this situation. In the end, the Old Lady puzzled by Prophet Muhammad's character converted to Islam.

[Sufi]

Also a common misconception is that Muslims consider all non-muslims as kufr and bound to go to hell. That is false.

In islam, we wish for everyone on this planet to come to go to Heaven, regardless of race, creed, culture, or religion.

We wish that all of mankind can come to realize the true path of God (in our perspective), and we don't have hatred for anyone, whether they're muslim or non-muslim.

[Sufi]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC I think logic would dictate the creator would have more knowledge than his creation. I can't see any probability in this at all. Only those who reject the message of Islam knowingly. The Quran is very clear. These are the rules of God not me. Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account. 3:19

Islam considers everyone as innocent first and foremost. This most certainly applies to babies, the mentally ill and the like.

However, someone who is healthy and knowledgeable and objected the signs and warnings from God (as mentioned in the Quran and the above verse) has no fate but to serve the punishment. There is no excuse for this especially when the book of God was sent to Muhammad and everyone has been given an opportunity to seek knowledge and learn about Islam. God himself says to seek knowledge!

That is why as Muslims, in this world, we are trying to bring the whole of mankind to realize the true path of God before it is too late. We wish for everyone to attain Heaven!

But as a Muslim, I respect whatever religion or lack thereof you have. However, all I can do is wish and pray that you will come to Islam like all of us and gain the benefits and reward in the end. We do not wish for anyone to go through the fires of hell except for those who have angered God (and only God knows who these people are, and may God forgive them)

[UP]

This thing is wrong in my opinion.

Islam is the ultimate truth and other religions are wrong and lies.

If I was born Christian - it would be very hard for me to drag myself towards Islam even if one told the most beautiful stories regarding Islam. I'm sure Christian people have heard about those beautiful stories in their religion as well.

Religion's job is to control social beings. Every religion more or less aims for the same thing in the end - fairness.

I'm pretty sure majority of the people here have not studied other religions in depth. Same goes with other non-muslims - they will mostly never touch Quran in their lives. Muslims consider their religion to be the final truth and other religious people consider theirs to the the ultimate truth.

I don't know why muslims don't understand that. Its a simple thing.

[James]

Some verses in The Cow tell us that God is aware of members of all the Abrahamic religions.

So if we find guidance through the histories and stories within the Koran, Bible and Torah and live good lives, then we are entitled to look forward to a productive discussion with Him one day.

[IgnitedMind]

Happened to read this thread at work, I cannot believe how stupid arguments by "some" religious people are.. mind boggling!!!

He is all powerfull, all mercy, all wise...but he just lets a 3 yr old child to be raped by a animal...

and child will go to heaven for it..

awesome...

Can somebody rape me and do the divine work of sending me to heaven..

[Sufi]

Originally Posted by UP This thing is wrong in my opinion. Islam is the ultimate truth and other religions are wrong and lies. If I was born Christian - it would be very hard for me to drag myself towards Islam even if one told the most beautiful stories regarding Islam. I'm sure Christian people have heard about those beautiful stories in their religion as well. Religion's job is to control social beings. Every religion more or less aims for the same thing in the end - fairness. I'm pretty sure majority of the people here have not studied other religions in depth. Same goes with other non-muslims - they will mostly never touch Quran in their lives. Muslims consider their religion to be the final truth and other religious people consider theirs to the the ultimate truth. I don't know why muslims don't understand that. Its a simple thing.

Okay but can you explain why more people convert to Islam than any other religion?

Simply reading the Quran itself causes people to convert.

I hope you will consider reading what the Quran has to say, cover to cover, before ruling it out as a potential religion to follow.

Also Christianity has been refuted by Islamic scholars. There are various online sources you can refer to where Christianity as a religion is analyzed and compared with Islam.

Did you know Christianity refers to sick babies as corrupt and evil? Islam refers to them as innocent! What a difference..

[James]

Dude that doesn't mean a lot when you talk about Islamic scholars. There are plenty of Jewish and Christian scholars that have refuted other things, and plenty of historians that have refuted the lot. Nobody really knows who is right, there are only arguments.

Ultimately we should read everything available to us and make up our own minds, which comes through: common sense applied to the texts, words and teachings of all times, starting now and going back to antiquity. This includes a great deal of human and natural history, a significant part of which is to be found through the stories of God and humans in the three main religious texts.

[Sufi]

Originally Posted by navroks123 Happened to read this thread at work, I cannot believe how stupid arguments by "some" religious people are.. mind boggling!!! He is all powerfull, all mercy, all wise...but he just lets a 3 yr old child to be raped by a animal... and child will go to heaven for it.. awesome... Can somebody rape me and do the divine work of sending me to heaven..

So God is at fault for the child being raped by the animal?

Who put the animal near the child?
Aren't the parents responsible and supposed to keep their child safe and away from dangerous animals?

Who is at fault here? Clearly it's man's fault, not God's.

As for the rape, who is at fault? Who let the rape occur? Who initiated the rape? What caused the rape to occur?

As muslims, we believe God doesn't have direct control in this life (there are indirect form of control, such as God sending down earthquakes, rain etc.) and he has chosen to do that for a reason. He gives everyone free autonomy to do whatever they want. However, as muslims we do believe God will most certainly have control over you in the afterlife. (By this I mean whether you will go to Heaven or Hell and what will happen)

[Sufi]

Originally Posted by James Dude that doesn't mean a lot when you talk about Islamic scholars. There are plenty of Jewish and Christian scholars that have refuted other things, and plenty of historians that have refuted the lot. Nobody really knows who is right, there are only arguments. Ultimately we should read everything available to us and make up our own minds, which comes through: common sense applied to the texts, words and teachings of all times, starting now and going back to antiquity. This includes a great deal of human and natural history, a significant part of which is to be found through the stories of God and humans in the three main religious texts.

I went on a Christian website to see what they're so called refutations are.

To my amusement, what they did, was pick out few verses in the Quran (without quoting the entire paragraph to see the entire meaning and justification of it) and then proceeded to make a conclusion that "Allah orders muslims to kill the non-believers", without disregarding the fact that Allah mentions that we should not kill anyone LOL!

No offense, but I wouldn't trust a Christian or Jew when it comes to making refutations, against a religion like Islam.

Look at how the media portrays Islam, it's very easy for them to be biased against us.

[UP]

Sufi - people leave Islam and people convert to Islam. Good for them whatever choices they make.

Do you have any stats to back up your claim?

[James]

Originally Posted by Sufi No offense, but I wouldn't trust a Christian or Jew when it comes to making refutations.

What because of some silly website that you Googled?

There is a lot of credible scholarly work that can be attributed to Christian and Jewish people over the last 2000 years. This is still going on today.

Go to a library or a book shop, read some texts.

You need to stop making generalisations and open your mind.

'Sufi' - be a Sufi.

[Sufi]

Originally Posted by UP If Islam has scholars who refute other religions - don't you think other religions have scholars who could refute Islam as well? In reality - yes other scholars can refute as Islam tooIslamic scholars have provided scholars of other religions to come debate a. As for the conversion: people leave Islam and some people convert to Islam. Good for them whatever choice they make. Do you have any stats to back that up?

Pick up the latest edition of Guinness Book of Records. Islam tops the list as the fastest growing religion each year.

[Sufi]

Originally Posted by James What because of some silly website that you Googled? There is a lot of credible scholarly work that can be attributed to Christian and Jewish people over the last 2000 years. This is still going on today. Go to a library or a book shop, read some texts. You need to stop making generalisations and open your mind. 'Sufi' - be a Sufi.

I will gladly go open up a Christian book if someone agrees to bring an Islamic book and have a discussion together.

We can bring the original religious texts (Bible and Quran) and read together!

[James]

Originally Posted by Sufi I will gladly go open up a Christian book if someone agrees to bring an Islamic book and have a discussion together.

Good. Then we will make a pot of tea and we will do it.

Many other people amongst the educated classes - Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Agnostic - would also be willing to do it.

[UP]

Originally Posted by Sufi Pick up the latest edition of Guinness Book of Records. Islam tops the list as the fastest growing religion each year.

More population being born as muslims or people converting to Islam?

Any reliable source that you can post here to back up your claim would be appreciated.

[Sufi]

Originally Posted by UP More population being born as muslims or people converting to Islam? Any reliable source that you can post here to back up your claim would be appreciated.

According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Islam is the world’s fastest-growing religion by number of conversions each year: Although the religion began in Arabia, by 2002 80% of all believers in Islam lived outside the Arab world. In the period 1990-2000, approximately 12.5 million more people converted to Islam than to Christianity

[UP]

Originally Posted by Sufi According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Islam is the world’s fastest-growing religion by number of conversions each year: Although the religion began in Arabia, by 2002 80% of all believers in Islam lived outside the Arab world. In the period 1990-2000, approximately 12.5 million more people converted to Islam than to Christianity

So you took that from the Wikipedia, I assume.

Wikipedia isn't reliable

[Sufi]

Originally Posted by UP So you took that from the Wikipedia, I assume. Wikipedia isn't reliable

It's referenced to Guinness Book of Records.

pick up an edition of the book

[Usman]

Originally Posted by UP I totally disagree with your simple answer. Four year old can't be tested upon - he has no sense and he can't fight for himself. His free will is being taken away. What if the child catches some serious permanent disease? His future life is ruined. Governments/people have took big actions against the evil deeds and that's why we have law, police/courts in this world. God wants to test someone - go ahead and test adults, no one is stopping him.

I don't think the correct way is to say he is testing children. Basically, my understanding is that God does not intervene if evil is taking place, simply because on the day of judgement when someone asks him why they are being punished the way they are, he will point to their horrible deeds. If he intervened and stopped the child being exploited, then how will justify severely punishing that person? Yes it means the child suffers severely, but God is not blind to the child's pain. You say what if the child catches a disease, well, God will point to that fact when he punishes the abuser to justify the severity of his punishment.

To intervene in the child's suffering would no doubt save the child pain. But if God did this with evil acts, it would defeat the point of us being here. Does that make sense?

[IgnitedMind]

Originally Posted by Sufi So God is at fault for the child being raped by the animal? Who put the animal near the child? Aren't the parents responsible and supposed to keep their child safe and away from dangerous animals? Who is at fault here? Clearly it's man's fault, not God's. As for the rape, who is at fault? Who let the rape occur? Who initiated the rape? What caused the rape to occur? As muslims, we believe God doesn't have direct control in this life (there are indirect form of control, such as God sending down earthquakes, rain etc.) and he has chosen to do that for a reason. He gives everyone free autonomy to do whatever they want. However, as muslims we do believe God will most certainly have control over you in the afterlife. (By this I mean whether you will go to Heaven or Hell and what will happen)

So god created us and left us to do anything and everything we want(gang rape a child, kill a human)...while he does everything he wants to(earthquakes,tsunamis)..and judge us like simon cowell after our performance...and then if we did well enough he will give us gifts...

so what is his greatness...lol ...I can do what god does if I had the power to do it...err I would use my sense and make better use of it...not just create,sit and judge people...(this if god exists..which he does not)

[Sufi]

Originally Posted by navroks123 So god created us and left us to do anything and everything we want(gang rape a child, kill a human)...while he does everything he wants to(earthquakes,tsunamis)..and judge us like simon cowell after our performance...and then if we did well enough he will give us gifts... so what is his greatness...lol ...I can do what god does if I had the power to do it...err I would use my sense and make better use of it...not just create,sit and judge people...(this if god exists..which he does not)

Yes, we believe god created mankind and gave us the tools and intelligence to do whatever we want, believe in whatever we want etc.

We believe he sent messengers and the book of God (Qu'ran) to inform mankind of the creation, the creator and the final test for all of us.

And good for you for believing and claiming god does not exist. It doesn't affect me. Take your childish Simon Cowell jokes elsewhere, if you want to comment on the existence of god, do so in a peaceful manner.

[Nishaa]

Hi! New here. Been browsing this site for the longest period of time.

Does god exist IMO yes he does. i have come to this conclusion after trying to understand big bang theory and any other scientific evidence available. i don't get it. where did that spark that ignited mankind life etc where did that come from Why did the universe expand!! why??? what was the need! then why did it cool!! why did continents break apart.. i just don't get it. why do we live this life why do we suffer so much why do we love fight why do we form all these bonds in this life ??? What happens after death If no god then what!! What happens to us?

Hitler commited sucide. i think he had it good. he wasn't punished and i am sure lot of bad people in this world don't get caught and die peacefully. So that's it. Nobody get's punished .. Something is not right here I have to believe that bad people get their due. if not in his life then next life or in hell

But it's very hard to believe in god when there is so much injustice going on in this world. for centuries some races have dominated the world the balance of power is still tilted in their favour. It's unfair!! So much genocide is going on in the world and it never seems to end.

I did like Sufi's answers in the begining. But then UP asked a question why children!!

Even if humans are doing bad/evil things u have to wonder what kind of god let's these things happen to children..

But if there is no god as some people here say then exactly what is the purpose of all of us in this life. If there is no after life no heaven no hell then what!!

Sometimes i think that hell is on earth itself. I mean that child molested i feel that is hell a woman who get's acid thrown on her face and suffers pain that's hell victims of genocide etc they are enduring hell people who are starving without food/water in our countries and africa isn't that hell. i feel heaven and hell are here on earth itself. God punishes us here and reward us in this life itself.

[Sufi]

Originally Posted by Usman I don't think the correct way is to say he is testing children. Basically, my understanding is that God does not intervene if evil is taking place, simply because on the day of judgement when someone asks him why they are being punished the way they are, he will point to their horrible deeds. If he intervened and stopped the child being exploited, then how will justify severely punishing that person? Yes it means the child suffers severely, but God is not blind to the child's pain. You say what if the child catches a disease, well, God will point to that fact when he punishes the abuser to justify the severity of his punishment. To intervene in the child's suffering would no doubt save the child pain. But if God did this with evil acts, it would defeat the point of us being here. Does that make sense?

It makes sense to me.

[Sufi]

Originally Posted by Nishaa Hi! New here. Been browsing this site for the longest period of time. Does god exist IMO yes he does. i have come to this conclusion after trying to understand big bang theory and any other scientific evidence available. i don't get it. where did that spark that ignited mankind life etc where did that come from Why did the universe expand!! why??? what was the need! then why did it cool!! why did continents break apart.. i just don't get it. why do we live this life why do we suffer so much why do we love fight why do we form all these bonds in this life ??? What happens after death If no god then what!! What happens to us? Hitler commited sucide. i think he had it good. he wasn't punished and i am sure lot of bad people in this world don't get caught and die peacefully. So that's it. Nobody get's punished .. Something is not right here I have to believe that bad people get their due. if not in his life then next life or in hell But it's very hard to believe in god when there is so much injustice going on in this world. for centuries some races have dominated the world the balance of power is still tilted in their favour. It's unfair!! So much genocide is going on in the world and it never seems to end. I did like Sufi's answers in the begining. But then UP asked a question why children!! Even if humans are doing bad/evil things u have to wonder what kind of god let's these things happen to children.. But if there is no god as some people here say then exactly what is the purpose of all of us in this life. If there is no after life no heaven no hell then what!! Sometimes i think that hell is on earth itself. I mean that child molested i feel that is hell a woman who get's acid thrown on her face and suffers pain that's hell victims of genocide etc they are enduring hell people who are starving without food/water in our countries and africa isn't that hell. i feel heaven and hell are here on earth itself. God punishes us here and reward us in this life itself.

In Islam, God states that the world is like Heaven for the non-believers and like Hell for the believers.

Look at hitler, he committed suicide, justice was not forwarded for the millions of people he had killed. Who's going to serve this justice? In Islam, we believe (and hope) God will.

And Usman has also mentioned the point that God simply does not intervene. We don't mean he can't (after all in Islam we believe God has the capability to do anything), but there's a clear reason why God does not intervene.

And it all comes back to the fact, that the world is in mankind's hands. Everything that happens to people in this world is as a result of mankind itself, which comes back to the cause and effect law.

If people followed religion and to the word of God, then there wouldn't be people committing these forms of injustice, would there? After all isn't God the one who claimed that injustice should not occur, people should not be killed, the innocent and wives must be protected in the Quran?

All of this is in accordance with Islamic beliefs.

So which side you do support?

Do you support a moral law created by God himself which serves justice for everybody and is fair in every way possible?

Or do you support man-made law, which has been developing from societies on end? God had already revealed to us portions of law that are only being passed now in certain countries, when they have already been mentioned in the Quran 1400 years ago!?

[UP]

Originally Posted by Usman I don't think the correct way is to say he is testing children. Basically, my understanding is that God does not intervene if evil is taking place, simply because on the day of judgement when someone asks him why they are being punished the way they are, he will point to their horrible deeds. If he intervened and stopped the child being exploited, then how will justify severely punishing that person? Yes it means the child suffers severely, but God is not blind to the child's pain. You say what if the child catches a disease, well, God will point to that fact when he punishes the abuser to justify the severity of his punishment. To intervene in the child's suffering would no doubt save the child pain. But if God did this with evil acts, it would defeat the point of us being here. Does that make sense?

God has already intervened - he pre-wrote child's destiny - meaning, through what experiences he will go through (That's what we muslims believe. Correct me if I'm wrong)

[Sufi]

Originally Posted by UP God has already intervened - he pre-wrote child's destiny - meaning, through what experiences he will go through (That's what we muslims believe. Correct me if I'm wrong)

In Islam, we believe God has given us freewill to do anything that we wish. Why do you think injustice occurs in the world? - As a result of freewill by people's actions.

However a distinction must be made. Even though we are given freewill to do whatever want, the law of cause and effect will always come back to haunt us. Believing in divine destiny allows us muslims to not become arrogant and full of pride. We need to take note of the fact that whatever happens in our life, whether a tragedy or good things, is due to the will of God.

We get to choose whatever path we want, but God is the one that decides where we end up on that path!

The Prophet has mentioned:

“Allah wrote down the decrees of creation fifty thousand years before He created the heavens and the earth.”

What this means is God is aware of the outcomes of our actions but we are the ones, inevitably, who are given freewill to do whatever action we want.

As muslims we must accept the fact that what happens to us, is as a result of God's wisdom, and whatever he wills, will take place, and whatever he doesn't will, will not take place.

At the end of the day, all that matters it that we remain steadfast upon the religion, irrespective of any hardships we encounter.

[Sufi]

And a clear difference between Fate and Destiny needs to be taken note of.

Muslims don't believe in Fate. Fate results in an event that is bound to happen regardless of what caused it (whether good actions or bad actions) That's obviously false, and contradicts Islam!

Muslims do believe in divine destiny however. We need to go back to what we were mentioning earlier. As muslims we believe God is all-knowing, all-powerful and able to change anything. That means God can change our divine destiny based on our actions. God can control the divine destiny and whatever actions we commit can be a result of that.

We are given the free-will to do whatever we please, despite being warned by God.
Our divine destiny has already been written by God, but that doesn't mean God can't change it even when it's still in it's intermediate stages before reaching the final stage.

Once again, this is what muslims believe. (I say this in respect of other people here and their religions, I'm not trying to impose any of my beliefs on others)

[RWAC]

Originally Posted by Sufi And a clear difference between Fate and Destiny needs to be taken note of. Muslims don't believe in Fate. Fate results in an event that is bound to happen regardless of what caused it (whether good actions or bad actions) That's obviously false, and contradicts Islam! Muslims do believe in divine destiny however. We need to go back to what we were mentioning earlier. As muslims we believe God is all-knowing, all-powerful and able to change anything. That means God can change our divine destiny based on our actions. God can control the divine destiny and whatever actions we commit can be a result of that. We are given the free-will to do whatever we please, despite being warned by God. Our divine destiny has already been written by God, but that doesn't mean God can't change it even when it's still in it's intermediate stages before reaching the final stage. Once again, this is what muslims believe. (I say this in respect of other people here and their religions, I'm not trying to impose any of my beliefs on others)

So what you are saying is that destiny is like a dynamic game, where God wrote it first but then left open a margin where not even He knows how He will alter it (because according to you, it can be altered based on actions)?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[IgnitedMind]

Originally Posted by Nishaa Hi! New here. Been browsing this site for the longest period of time. Does god exist IMO yes he does. i have come to this conclusion after trying to understand big bang theory and any other scientific evidence available. i don't get it. where did that spark that ignited mankind life etc where did that come from Why did the universe expand!! why??? what was the need! then why did it cool!! why did continents break apart.. i just don't get it. why do we live this life why do we suffer so much why do we love fight why do we form all these bonds in this life ??? What happens after death If no god then what!! What happens to us? Hitler commited sucide. i think he had it good. he wasn't punished and i am sure lot of bad people in this world don't get caught and die peacefully. So that's it. Nobody get's punished .. Something is not right here I have to believe that bad people get their due. if not in his life then next life or in hell But it's very hard to believe in god when there is so much injustice going on in this world. for centuries some races have dominated the world the balance of power is still tilted in their favour. It's unfair!! So much genocide is going on in the world and it never seems to end. I did like Sufi's answers in the begining. But then UP asked a question why children!! Even if humans are doing bad/evil things u have to wonder what kind of god let's these things happen to children.. But if there is no god as some people here say then exactly what is the purpose of all of us in this life. If there is no after life no heaven no hell then what!! Sometimes i think that hell is on earth itself. I mean that child molested i feel that is hell a woman who get's acid thrown on her face and suffers pain that's hell victims of genocide etc they are enduring hell people who are starving without food/water in our countries and africa isn't that hell. i feel heaven and hell are here on earth itself. God punishes us here and reward us in this life itself.

Exactly, God was answer for everything humans did not get. And after you death, people bury you or burn you...depending you will rot or turn into ashes..as simple as that.

If human rapes a child , it is a human decision...if a human helps a child..its his decision.

Live your life however you want with out harming others, and then die!!!! thats where the story ends...no god..no heaven..no hell..nothing...just nature!!!!! There is no purpose for life in general..your life is as important as a life of a pig or an ant or virus to nature....if you want find purpose to life..find it...but in general....you were born because two people had sex..and then a life started like any other animal and then you die like any other animal...Do not get all philosophical with questions like why this life..what is the purpose...nothing...living/surviving is the purpose!!

[wasi90lk]

i do not know what God has in mind, quite frankly no one knows.

whatever injustice happens in this world, God will make it fair in the afterlife.

life is like a cricket game, where often you will have to get injured from bouncers. that does not mean you cry going to the match referee to ban bouncers. if you are fit enough, life will not be a problem for you.

[RWAC]

Welcome. You echoed a lot of my thoughts, especially the first paragraph. But here's what I think - just because I (or science) doesn't know the answers to those questions (yet), that does not prove the existence of God.

But I totally understand where you are coming from. Except that I don't use the "why" as a logical proof for existence of God. I just ponder and ponder...running around in concentric circles in my mind...

Disclaimer: I'm a religious person who believes in God

Originally Posted by Nishaa Hi! New here. Been browsing this site for the longest period of time. Does god exist IMO yes he does. i have come to this conclusion after trying to understand big bang theory and any other scientific evidence available. i don't get it. where did that spark that ignited mankind life etc where did that come from Why did the universe expand!! why??? what was the need! then why did it cool!! why did continents break apart.. i just don't get it. why do we live this life why do we suffer so much why do we love fight why do we form all these bonds in this life ??? What happens after death If no god then what!! What happens to us? Hitler commited sucide. i think he had it good. he wasn't punished and i am sure lot of bad people in this world don't get caught and die peacefully. So that's it. Nobody get's punished .. Something is not right here I have to believe that bad people get their due. if not in his life then next life or in hell But it's very hard to believe in god when there is so much injustice going on in this world. for centuries some races have dominated the world the balance of power is still tilted in their favour. It's unfair!! So much genocide is going on in the world and it never seems to end. I did like Sufi's answers in the begining. But then UP asked a question why children!! Even if humans are doing bad/evil things u have to wonder what kind of god let's these things happen to children.. But if there is no god as some people here say then exactly what is the purpose of all of us in this life. If there is no after life no heaven no hell then what!! Sometimes i think that hell is on earth itself. I mean that child molested i feel that is hell a woman who get's acid thrown on her face and suffers pain that's hell victims of genocide etc they are enduring hell people who are starving without food/water in our countries and africa isn't that hell. i feel heaven and hell are here on earth itself. God punishes us here and reward us in this life itself.

[UP]

Originally Posted by wasi90lk i do not know what God has in mind, quite frankly no one knows. whatever injustice happens in this world, God will make it fair in the afterlife. life is like a cricket game, where often you will have to get injured from bouncers. that does not mean you cry going to the match referee to ban bouncers. if you are fit enough, life will not be a problem for you.

If you are bowling vicious bouncers to a child who has not touched a cricket bat before - the match referee will intervene and tell you to stop.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Nishaa Hi! New here. Been browsing this site for the longest period of time. Does god exist IMO yes he does. i have come to this conclusion after trying to understand big bang theory and any other scientific evidence available. i don't get it. where did that spark that ignited mankind life etc where did that come from Why did the universe expand!! why??? what was the need! then why did it cool!! why did continents break apart..

Physics. It would appear to be that the universe will inexorably organise itself into life, and eventually sentient life.

Hello, BTW.

[wasi90lk]

Originally Posted by UP If you are bowling vicious bouncers to a child who has not touched a cricket bat before - the match referee will intervene and tell you to stop.

i said in my earlier post, life is like a cricket game. which means, when you are born it is like you are playing international cricket.

so according to your theory, a bowler should not bowl bouncer to a debutant because he is inexperienced?

like i posted earlier, if an injustice happens in this world God will make up for it. some call it karma, i call it the justice of God.

[DHONI183]

UP, if you do get a chance to ask all these questions to God then please ring me up so that we can do a teleconference.

[James]

Greetings Nishaa! Good to have you aboard. Feel free to make a thread in the Introductions forum.

[Indiafan]

Originally Posted by Sufi So the dude who is burning in the pit of fire, he might have committed murder and killed someone's son. So, its torture to punish this certain man for doing this crime, or is it not justice being served? What about the innocent person who was murdered, will justice not be served for his family?

IMO rapists, molestors, murderers are the worst scum on earth. But even I will not wish an eternity of torment on them and I dont know how an all loving and merciful God can do that. As someone said, eternity is a long, long time. We cannot stand the pain of burning for 2 seconds, imagine for eternity. Its pure sadistic torture and not a punishment

[Indiafan]

Originally Posted by Usman I don't think the correct way is to say he is testing children. Basically, my understanding is that God does not intervene if evil is taking place, simply because on the day of judgement when someone asks him why they are being punished the way they are, he will point to their horrible deeds. If he intervened and stopped the child being exploited, then how will justify severely punishing that person? Yes it means the child suffers severely, but God is not blind to the child's pain. You say what if the child catches a disease, well, God will point to that fact when he punishes the abuser to justify the severity of his punishment. To intervene in the child's suffering would no doubt save the child pain. But if God did this with evil acts, it would defeat the point of us being here. Does that make sense?

Does that mean punishing the guilty is more important for him than sparing an innocent child the pain? Isnt that like if a policeman witnesses a child being raped but doesnt stop it because he wants the culprit to be punished more severely and thats the saddest thing which ever can be. If a human being used such logic, hje would be condenmed as heartless and cruel

[wasi90lk]

Originally Posted by Indiafan Does that mean punishing the guilty is more important for him than sparing an innocent child the pain? Isnt that like if a policeman witnesses a child being raped but doesnt stop it because he wants the culprit to be punished more severely and thats the saddest thing which ever can be. If a human being used such logic, hje would be condenmed as heartless and cruel

difference between police and God is, God can make the child's life fair after death. police can not.

we should not be comparing anything with God.

[Derek Randall]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC Firstly a human being cannot question God. He/she can but it makes no sense to question an all powerful creator when you are a very weak and limited creature. This is not to say humans can't question why things happen but they shouldn't be fooled into thinking they as a weak creature in comparison to the all powerful Creator would know better. The answer to your questions is straight forward. God does not need to intervene because he has given us humans all the ability to stop any evil acts or acts you may find as wrong such as child abuse. I was watching Planet Earth live(a must watch) where a small Elephant baby was taken by a Lion. Elephants also feel distress when such things happen to their babies. Should God have intervened then? If God intervenes in the animal kingdom every time a baby of animal is taken by a predator it would upset the balance of nature causing suffering for the predators. The point is a human being cannot know the wisdom of God. He allows Evil just as he allows Good to take place. We humans are the best of his creation because we have been given the ability to stop evils unlike animals. It's easy to sit back and blame God. It's more difficult to get up and do something about it. God has given you the ability to stop evil. You should praise the Lord for this and take the opportunity to make a difference.

Six years ago me and my wife adopted a child .He was two when we got him and had been in care for nine months .He along with his two slightly older siblings had been sexually abused, physically abused ,starved ,been forced to eat there own faeces,forced to fight dogs etc etc anything you can think of had been done to them .This was done to them by both parents and others they were alone and innocent .All three now suffer serious mental problems and struggle to cope with society and basically w ill never get over it .There was no one to help them they were all under 5 if ever there was a god to intervene ,surely this would have been the time .Incidntly no one was charged with any offences as the word of young children isnt good enough .

No such thing as god its just a fairy tale told to keep the masses in check and boy does it work .



Stran

[UP]

Originally Posted by wasi90lk i said in my earlier post, life is like a cricket game. which means, when you are born it is like you are playing international cricket. so according to your theory, a bowler should not bowl bouncer to a debutant because he is inexperienced? like i posted earlier, if an injustice happens in this world God will make up for it. some call it karma, i call it the justice of God.

Little child is not a debutant. He has never played cricket before.

Let him grow up, and then bowl bouncers at him.

[UP]

Originally Posted by DHONI183 UP, if you do get a chance to ask all these questions to God then please ring me up so that we can do a teleconference.

My phone doesn't work

[DHONI183]

Originally Posted by UP My phone doesn't work

Get your phone in order before criticizing God.

[Crazy_K]

Originally Posted by Robert When I look in the mirror. We are all God. All is One.

Well considering you are the only one who hears your prayers. Maybe each of us is god

[Crazy_K]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC You should try posting this on a atheist forum. Imo they are the most illogical people who believe chance is the cause of the universe. These people will happily tell you if God was existent he would stop this suffering, they have nothing more to offer in this subject. Perhaps you should refute the Muslim views, it may help you reach a better conclusion? Let me ask you, Should God intervene in the animal kingdom too? ie. the Lions who eat Elephant babies which causes distress to the Elephant.

Atheists are illogical?
Maybe you should try to understand atheism. Its the rejection of absurd, ILLOGICAL claims without evidence that religious people believe

And to anyone who says the child's life is mapped out, they'll receive something better later, is the most disgusting support of God I have ever heard.
A god which puts a child through sexual abuse to provide something better in future does NOT deserve to be worshipped

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by Derek Randall Six years ago me and my wife adopted a child .He was two when we got him and had been in care for nine months .He along with his two slightly older siblings had been sexually abused, physically abused ,starved ,been forced to eat there own faeces,forced to fight dogs etc etc anything you can think of had been done to them .This was done to them by both parents and others they were alone and innocent .All three now suffer serious mental problems and struggle to cope with society and basically w ill never get over it .There was no one to help them they were all under 5 if ever there was a god to intervene ,surely this would have been the time .Incidntly no one was charged with any offences as the word of young children isnt good enough . No such thing as god its just a fairy tale told to keep the masses in check and boy does it work . Stran

Firstly it's a bit daft to determine the existence of God because a child has suffered.

Off spring of animals suffer too. So far nobody has addressed my point. Should God also intervene if a baby Elephant is about to be parted from it's mother by a lion?

Evil is part of life and just because God allows it to happen doesn't mean people can simply deny his existence. A created species who is weak and limited can never get close to the wisdom of the Creator.

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by Crazy_K Atheists are illogical? Maybe you should try to understand atheism. Its the rejection of absurd, ILLOGICAL claims without evidence that religious people believe

It's not difficult to understand an atheist. For them what we see as Creation comes down to chance. Even a simple object cannot come out of thin air because of chance let alone the complex universe. No explosion(big bang) would turn into order unless it's designed to by a superior power whose ability is limitless.

And to anyone who says the child's life is mapped out, they'll receive something better later, is the most disgusting support of God I have ever heard. A god which puts a child through sexual abuse to provide something better in future does NOT deserve to be worshipped

You should try to understand Islam. God doesn't map out anyone's life but knows what will happen, an important difference. It's essentially up to the human being how he/she lives and how he/she affects those who live around them.

[Equinox]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC Off spring of animals suffer too. So far nobody has addressed my point. Should God also intervene if a baby Elephant is about to be parted from it's mother by a lion?

I thought animals were put on Earth for the pleasure of human beings, who according to the Holy books are superior to wild creatures. So how can you draw parallels between the two?

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by Equinox I thought animals were put on Earth for the pleasure of human beings, who according to the Holy books are superior to wild creatures. So how can you draw parallels between the two?

Sure, my comparison is the suffering of the baby and the effect on it's mother(parent). Obviously humans have a different level of suffering but animals suffer too.

[Tera Gawaandi]

“Kyon hoya te kee hoya Khap khap mare sayaane… Hoshan naalon masti changee Rakhdee sada thikane.

What happened and why? These are questions over which many wise men have fretted… Better lose yourself in love for the Divine so that there are no more questions.”

Perhaps it would be more useful to approach it from a different direction. Bad things don't happen to good people; in, fact bad things don't happen. Perfection cannot produce imperfection.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC It's not difficult to understand an atheist. For them what we see as Creation comes down to chance. Even a simple object cannot come out of thin air because of chance let alone the complex universe. No explosion(big bang) would turn into order unless it's designed to by a superior power whose ability is limitless.

My reading up on quantum mechanics, astrophysics, geophysics, thermodynamics and evolutionary biology have pushed me towards atheism because the physical world starts to look less and less like an act of what you call "chance" and more and more like an inevitable expression of physical laws.

This does not rule out the possibility of a creator God, but it does suggest to me that one is simply not necessary for the universe to behave the way we observe it to.

[Indiafan]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC Firstly it's a bit daft to determine the existence of God because a child has suffered. Off spring of animals suffer too. So far nobody has addressed my point. Should God also intervene if a baby Elephant is about to be parted from it's mother by a lion? Evil is part of life and just because God allows it to happen doesn't mean people can simply deny his existence. A created species who is weak and limited can never get close to the wisdom of the Creator.

Any creator who has the power to intervene when a young one is suffering and choses not to do so, does not deserve respect. I would even hold a human being, who has much lesser powers, responsible if he does not intervene after seeing a young kid/animal suffer.

God might have built the universe to test man, but there was no need for children to be subjected to the same evil and suffering. with His power he could have easliy built a world with free-will where children do not suffer. For example, he could have put it in our genes to be incapable of harming children (Like there are many things in our genes which makes us incapable of doing things. Like holding one's breath till one dies for example) There is absilutely no sense in causing children to suffer and die of diseases, starvation, murders all in the name of test for adults

[Indiafan]

Originally Posted by wasi90lk difference between police and God is, God can make the child's life fair after death. police can not. we should not be comparing anything with God.

Thats an easy cop out. A child molestor might have the power to make a child happy and rich for the rest of his life after he is done. Doesnt make the suffering the child suffers any less real. Children are abused for years before they die a slow death. No one deserves that

I also have a problem with the whole "world is a test by God" logic. If its a test, then the parameter should be equal for all human being. On the one hand, we have a failry well to do person, who has all worries taken care of. He spends lots in charities, prays 5 times a day, doesnt do anything haraam and is an ideal religious person. He takes care of his family and neighbours, goes to Haj, etc etc. On the other hand, we have a starving family, father works 20 hours a day and its still not enough. Local goons threaten them for their land. Wife is suffering from incurable disease, etc. How are the two situations comparable? In the second case despite his best intnetions, the person can turn to crime, non-halaal things or stop praying. Which is exactly what the former person would have done if situations were reversed.

Its a pretty unfair world and there cannot be one test for everyone

[Derek Randall]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC Firstly it's a bit daft to determine the existence of God because a child has suffered. Off spring of animals suffer too. So far nobody has addressed my point. Should God also intervene if a baby Elephant is about to be parted from it's mother by a lion? Evil is part of life and just because God allows it to happen doesn't mean people can simply deny his existence. A created species who is weak and limited can never get close to the wisdom of the Creator.

I may be wrong but according to memory arent humans supposedly made in the image of god so surely that would mean there would be a chance this deity would trat humans better than animals .

Animals eat each other for food not through cruelty .

Three chidrens lives ruined for nothing .

[Namak_Halaal]

Some ask why does God not take any action? How absurd and ignorant. Barring the notion God will not intervene with human freewill (it is freewill which anoints humans above all creations), the universe is about balance whether you are believer in God or not.

To understand day, you need to understand night. To understand black, you need to understand white. To understand happiness, you need to understand sadness. To understand the poor, you need to understand the rich, and so on. This applies to absolutely every element of your existence – balance.

Your Indianfans who dream of a perfect world fail to grasp the basics, and that is, in a perfect world your morals, your emotions, your trust, your kindness and anything other fine characteristic you can think of can NEVER be tested or gauged in the absence of bad - this is a cold hard fact. You need bad to understand good, you need good to understand bad.

All you who feel pity, empathy, compassion towards victims of evil can only do so if evil/bad exists, without bad, there is no way of knowing just how good of a character you are.

So before you start blaming God, understand the basics first.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Indiafan I also have a problem with the whole "world is a test by God" logic. If its a test, then the parameter should be equal for all human being.

Answered above in my post, we cannot be all equal, contrast must exist.

I bet you are the type who denies the existence of God purely on the basis everyone dies one day.

Originally Posted by Indiafan On the other hand, we have a starving family, father works 20 hours a day and its still not enough.

When you see this starving family who are worse off than you, what's the first thought in your head? Blame God or thank God for what he has provided you?

There is more chance of God existing compared to a Utopian world which has no evil and where we live forever.

One last point, you talk of good, but your good deeds are utterly pointless, irrelevant, have no value, and are of no use if you are not judged by them (Judge being the one who bestowed you the ability to distinguish between right and wrong). If you are not going to be judged, why are you doing good? For what purpose? To feel happy about yourself? What is stopping you from doing bad? If you do not believe in God then you will not see the benefit of any good you or your people do on Earth, because once you die, that’s it. Which begs the question, why are you moaning about some evil acts in the world when you are merely a guest on this Earth for no more than 100 years afterwhich you and your blip of a legacy will cease to exist?

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal To understand day, you need to understand night. To understand black, you need to understand white. To understand happiness, you need to understand sadness. To understand the poor, you need to understand the rich, and so on. This applies to absolutely every element of your existence – balance.

So to understand good fast bowlers, you have to understand India?

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Robert So to understand good fast bowlers, you have to understand India?

Well not exactly, but close enough. Yes, to understand fast bowling, I must understand Indian trundlers. Otherwise how do I know fast bowling is fast? Compared to what?