Enough hating on India. Englands turn!!

[Blitz]

So, we've all talked and made fun of how bad India's fast bowling has always been. Its pretty terrible. Just look at my signature, if you don't believe me


....but.


England is worse. They have the BEST BOWLING PITCHES on the planet! Its always raining! Its always cloudy!

Fast bowlers from England, playing more then half their careers in the most awesome bowling conditions, should all be averaging very low 20s. Hell, if Wasim/Waqar can be low 20s, playing in Pakistan all the time, England should be producing fast bowlers with lower then 20 averages!!

Lets have a look at England fast bowlers since 1970:



No one averages under 25!!

Oh my. Even the great Bob Willis and Ian Botham haven't got great statistics at all.

Flintoff over 33!
Anderson over 31!

All in english conditions. Damn, where do the English get such massive egos? They haven't produced a half decent bowler in half a century.


With their history, invesment, and conditions, is England an even bigger failure in producing fast bowlers then India?

Discuss?

[SameerP]

England also has flat tracks and their bowlers were never very good

[Sledger]

This really puts into context how crap Stuart Broad is lol. Dominic Cork is still plying his trade on the county circuit with 'Alfreedy'. Time for a recall methinks.

[KingKhanWC]

England used to chop and change a lot making some absurd selections at times. Darren Gough is my favourite England bowler, he had pace (in the early days) and could swing it both ways. Not surprising he has finished up with the best strike rate of the lot.

[DeadlyVenom]

Is this list just for home games?

[Fireworks11]

These averages get inflated by overseas batterings.

[jeetu]

Here is their home records.

[Ashraful_Rox]

Chris Tremlet will be the key in this tour. A lot depends on him.

[what ho]

I am quite astonished how, with such dreadful bowlers, we have still beaten Pakistan over and over again. Our record against Pakistan in both tests and ODIs is a good one i.e. the win loss ratio is above 1 in both.

I am also happy that Snow mentored the wild and woolly Khan and taught him what it took to be a fast bowler!

Note: Of course, if there hadn't been Pakistani umps, the record would have been even more impressive.

[jeetu]

Best away bowlers in england.
4 bowlers avg under 20.
15 bowlers avg under 25 there.

[velu]

If English guys do half of what they think or talk, two days back Hayemaker might have knocked out Klitschko in the first round itself

:whippy

[what ho]

What on Earth does Hayes have to do with cricket, Velu?

[Saqs]

Originally Posted by velu If English guys do half of what they think or talk, two days back Hayemaker might have knocked out Klitschko in the first round itself :whippy

Amazing tangent. Truly.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Blitz All in english conditions. Damn, where do the English get such massive egos? They haven't produced a half decent bowler in half a century. With their history, invesment, and conditions, is England an even bigger failure in producing fast bowlers then India?

I don't understand this 'ego' comment. The English do not take kindly to ego, and are some of the most self-aware of people IMO. Indeed, we would produce more top-class sports stars if we had stronger egoes. But there is a kind of regimentation in English cricket which prevents the real tearaway quick, or the leg-spinner from coming to the fore. The egoes get knocked out of them by the Counties - they are put in their place quickly. The Aussies call this Tall Poppy Syndrome - don't dare stick your head above the crowd, because it will get lopped off.

Another part of the problem, as Imran put it is "Your non-stop cricket prevents the development of fast bowlers". Many of them start off as fast but have to slow down to medium pace to prolong their careers. They still play too much and break down a lot. Fraser and Gough played about one test match in two over their careers.

English cricket should play to its strengths. We tend to win when
- we are very organised
- have excellent team spirit
- can get three effective quick bowlers fit together at once, for example Fraser-Gough-Cork vs. SA, Gough-Caddick-White in Pakistan and SL, the 2005 team and the current team.

[what ho]

Indeed, we would produce more top-class sports stars if we had stronger egoes.

Doesn't apply to the football, unfortunately. Come world cup or euro time, I wonder why we even lace up our boots given how the cup is, for all practical purposes, in the bag.

[Blitz]

Originally Posted by what ho Doesn't apply to the football, unfortunately. Come world cup or euro time, I wonder why we even lacing on our boots given how the cup is, for all practical purposes, in the bag.

Love it, because its so true. Every 4 years, England are somehow slotted as the favourites


Infact, weren't they one of the ''faves'' for the cricket world cup this time around?

[Ambi]

Where are you whippy?

[Robert]

Originally Posted by jeetu Best away bowlers in england. 4 bowlers avg under 20. 15 bowlers avg under 25 there.

Terry Alderman was a man born to bowl in England. Would have been the first man to 400 test wickets if he'd been England-qualified. He could swing it from leg- to hit off- which I have never seen since.

[velu]

Originally Posted by what ho What on Earth does Hayes have to do with cricket, Velu?

tried my luck in trolling

on a serious note, i tried putting my point that your media try their level best to overrate your sport stars intentionally or unintentionally ..
Be it cricket , tennis ( sorry murray ), football ( do i owe u any explanation ?? ) etc etc..

[Robert]

Originally Posted by velu on a serious note, i tried putting my point that your media try their level best to overrate your sport stars

I don't see that at all. I think British sports journalism is of a high standard overall. There is a difference between being enthusiastic and overrating.

[Blitz]

Originally Posted by Robert I don't see that at all. I think British sports journalism is of a high standard overall. There is a difference between being enthusiastic and overrating.

Just 2 weeks ago, Andrew Castle quoted:

''How will the likes of Djokovic and Federer find a way to beat Murray''


Instantly after that, I wanted Murray to get destroyed.

[what ho]

Originally Posted by Blitz Just 2 weeks ago, Andrew Castle quoted: ''How will the likes of Djokovic and Federer find a way to beat Murray'' Instantly after that, I wanted Murray to get destroyed.

At the risk of repetition, let's not forget the football.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Blitz Just 2 weeks ago, Andrew Castle quoted: ''How will the likes of Djokovic and Federer find a way to beat Murray''

Did Mr Castle answer the question in his article?

[Blitz]

Originally Posted by Robert Did Mr Castle answer the question in his article?

What? It was on commentary, in the match against Lopez I think.

Ad no, it was more of 'showing of' question! Kinda like, 'can anybody stop him' etc.


Point is, the English media go WAY overboard. No ones denying they are professional. I love Sky Sports

[velu]

Lets put some good points before basing England again

England media is bit gentle when criticizing their players,
and mainly they console themselves instead of bashing the players in case of some poor performance.

Example Rooney to Anderson.
If Anderson is Indian, our media surely murdered him for his WC performance.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Blitz What? It was on commentary, in the match against Lopez I think. Ad no, it was more of 'showing of' question! Kinda like, 'can anybody stop him' etc. Point is, the English media go WAY overboard. No ones denying they are professional. I love Sky Sports

Sounds like one single journo got a bit carried away to me, not the entire "English media".

[Blitz]

Originally Posted by Robert Sounds like one single journo got a bit carried away to me, not the entire "English media".

Having lived here all my life, I know its the whole ''english media''

Its something you won't know.

Why?

Because you're British. You'd never notice. Its like Pakistani's preaching about Inzi. I would never notice its showing of

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Blitz Having lived here all my life, I know its the whole ''english media'' Its something you won't know. Why? Because you're British. You'd never notice. Its like Pakistani's preaching about Inzi. I would never notice its showing of

I have never noticed Pakistanis 'preaching' about Inzi. He was a good player - they say what is obvious to everyone about him

Now, if you want a Pakster who is overrated by his countrymen, look no further than....... Wasim.

[Big Harvey]

Originally Posted by velu on a serious note, i tried putting my point that your media try their level best to overrate your sport stars intentionally or unintentionally ..

It does often happen when a British star first rises to prominence and enjoys some success. Then the media usually spends the rest of their career knocking them and putting them down.

[NJamal]

Originally Posted by what ho I am quite astonished how, with such dreadful bowlers, we have still beaten Pakistan over and over again. Our record against Pakistan in both tests and ODIs is a good one i.e. the win loss ratio is above 1 in both. I am also happy that Snow mentored the wild and woolly Khan and taught him what it took to be a fast bowler! Note: Of course, if there hadn't been Pakistani umps, the record would have been even more impressive.

I think the OP hit your nerve. Calm down mate.

[what ho]

Well, someone's got to 'fight back'. Otherwise, what's the point of the thread?

[Blitz]

Originally Posted by what ho Well, someone's got to 'fight back'. Otherwise, what's the point of the thread?

That the England bowlers are pretty terrible, given the conditions and are they in the same boat as India in terms of producing quality fast bowlers.

Discuss.


You post was a load of tosh.

Stick to the topic or don't comment. Last I checked, it wasn't ''Why did Englands crappy bowlers beat Pakistan here and there''.

[what ho]

England's bowlers haven't needed to be so damned amazing in order to win. That's the point. Especially against your lot.

And, terrible or not, still managed to teach a certain Imran Khan how to be a true blue fast bowler.

Quite relevant, even if it is beyond your limited understanding, Blitz.

[Sanchez]

Originally Posted by what ho England's bowlers haven't needed to be so damned amazing in order to win. That's the point. Especially against your lot. And, terrible or not, still managed to teach a certain Imran Khan how to be a true blue fast bowler. Quite relevant, even if it is beyond your limited understanding, Blitz.

That I think is quite irrelevant to the on-field performance of the bowlers. Terry Jenner was Warne's mentor for a long time and credited his involvement to his success. But, that doesn't prove much is it unless you are implying knowledge translates to performance in sports?

[Robert]

Originally Posted by what ho And, terrible or not, still managed to teach a certain Imran Khan how to be a true blue fast bowler.

The old Fast Bowler's Union. Snowy helped the young Imran out with advice, as did Lillee.

[what ho]

Knowledge is very important and does (or should), at the elite level, translate into performance, Sanchez.

Wonder how Barnes and co. did in England?

[ads101]

England have always overrated their bowling attack and underrated their batting. Don't think it'll change, it's more like a tradition.

Anyway list doesn't seem to bad, there aren't an awful lot of bowlers who average under 25 anyway. Three average under 28, a fair few on 28. Ain't bad. Not brilliant, but good.

England fast bowling in modern times hasn't been up to mark in my opinion. Should have done better. Part of me thinks this is due to sticking with players rather than chopping and changing a bit and creating some sort of competition. Terrible strategy for batsmen, but for bowlers for some reason works rather well. Probably why we've produced a lot of good bowlers, but very few good batsmen lol.

Tremlett has looked to be the most impressive fast bowler out of England for a long time. Wasn't impressed with either Broad or Harmison, both persisted far too long then they should have, especially Broad. Anderson still has to prove he can bowl good away, especially in the subcontinent. Still not convinced this guy has changed, two good series away doesn't change my mind that he's a changed bowler. Let's see if he can keep this up for the rest of his career both home and away, rather than just being a purple patch a la Harmison.

[Sanchez]

Knowledge in the sense I was talking more regarding coaching, mentoring etc.
Those are different fields I suspect.

[ads101]

Originally Posted by Robert I have never noticed Pakistanis 'preaching' about Inzi. He was a good player - they say what is obvious to everyone about him Now, if you want a Pakster who is overrated by his countrymen, look no further than....... Wasim.

Whether wasim's overrated or not doesn't change OP's point.

Wasim isn't the best bowler ever, nor was he the best bowler from pakistan, Imran Khan purely as a bowler probably was. Stats, success against top teams would only point in Imran's favour.

Doesn't change the fact Wasim was probably a better bowler than all those bowlers on the list. Though Bob Willis probably came close.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by ads101 Whether wasim's overrated or not doesn't change OP's point. Wasim isn't the best bowler ever, nor was he the best bowler from pakistan, Imran Khan purely as a bowler probably was. Stats, success against top teams would only point in Imran's favour. Doesn't change the fact Wasim was probably a better bowler than all those bowlers on the list. Though Bob Willis probably came close.

Oh, don't be such an old grump!

[W63L35]

Originally Posted by Blitz So, we've all talked and made fun of how bad India's fast bowling has always been. Its pretty terrible. Just look at my signature, if you don't believe me ....but. England is worse.

How England bowlers are worse?

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=bowling

[Looney]

I think you posted Barbie's batting average





































































oh wait ..........

[W63L35]

Even if you take Indian and England bowlers in Ind-Series (over all) and just in England.... England bowlers are much better than Indian bowlers. Just see how Kapil Dev got clobbered in Ind-Eng test matches... and even in England;

[Looney]

ah guess we can never defend indian phaaaaaast bowlers because we have large hearts , their stats will expose them

[Blitz]

Originally Posted by W63L35 How England bowlers are worse?

Yea, my bad, no one can match the crapness of India's fast bowlers.


However, my OP kind of said, with all the conditions available to them. They spend more then half their careers playing in England.

Yes, you can compare how Indian bowlers did in England, but they had a lot less matches, and England bowlers were bought up in English conditions!


Should be averaging 20.

[W63L35]

Originally Posted by Blitz Yes, you can compare how Indian bowlers did in England, but they had a lot less matches, and England bowlers were bought up in English conditions! .

Well, then let's compare Indian bowlers in England with ALL other bowlers......20 or more wickets;

[Blitz]

Dammit. Indian bowlers are bloody hopeless. Embarrasing.

[Looney]

i have tears in my eyes

[W63L35]

Originally Posted by Blitz Dammit. Indian bowlers are bloody hopeless. Embarrasing.

Hey hey hey..... they are not that hopeless..... Ishant "100 mph" Sharma just joined a select band of bowlers who have taken 21 or more wickets in a 3 or less test. He is yet to bowl in the 2nd test of the on-going test;

[Sledger]

33 wickets in 3 tests?!!

[what ho]

Nice list. What about the spinners? I bet Murali figures quite prominently in such a set.

[W63L35]

Originally Posted by what ho Nice list. What about the spinners? I bet Murali figures quite prominently in such a set.

Which set?

[khanz141]

I get the feeling that Zaheer Khan, if he plays all tests should be pretty good during the coming tests. Other than him, i dont see anyone else doing much.

I am basing that on the fact how good he has been over the past couple of years

[khanz141]

Why don't i see shoaib Akhtar anywhere on any list at all I am guessing he didn't play as much

[what ho]

Originally Posted by W63L35 Which set?

The 21 or more wickets in a 3 test series set.

[W63L35]

Originally Posted by what ho The 21 or more wickets in a 3 test series set.

Yes... he is there a few times!

[SameerP]

England needs players with big egos but not mentally weak like KP. Australia had players with massive egos and it served them well.. I still remember I think it was the 2002 Ashes England were getting destroyed and bowlers were still laughing

[what ho]

Not sure that KP is all that mentally weak. What he did to Warne in 05 certainly does not betoken mental weakness.

[SameerP]

Originally Posted by what ho Not sure that KP is all that mentally weak. What he did to Warne in 05 certainly does not betoken mental weakness.

Well he certainly is mentally weak, without having too much of a technical issue against left arm spinners he still gets out to them so many times, Certainly not a tough guy. Not to mention he is related to the great chokers of cricket

[Robert]

Originally Posted by SameerP I still remember I think it was the 2002 Ashes England were getting destroyed and bowlers were still laughing

All I can remember about that horrid series period is Vaughan scoring three brilliant hundreds and Caddick getting ten wickets in the fifth test.

Everything else has been deliberately blanked out by consumption of alcohol.

[SameerP]

Originally Posted by Robert All I can remember about that horrid series period is Vaughan scoring three brilliant hundreds and Caddick getting ten wickets in the fifth test. Everything else has been deliberately blanked out by consumption of alcohol.

Don't worry now the tides have changed.. atleast for a few years

[Robert]

Originally Posted by SameerP Well he certainly is mentally weak, without having too much of a technical issue against left arm spinners he still gets out to them so many times, Certainly not a tough guy. Not to mention he is related to the great chokers of cricket

What does "mentally weak" mean Sameer? That he has a low IQ?

What has happened is:

- he got out to the Bangla SLAs a few times when out of form
- the English press decided to attack him fo it
- now he is overthinking when an SLA comes on
- that takes him out of The Zone
- that mucks up his foot movement and he gets out

He just needs something simple to get him back into the Zone, like maybe a straight six and he will be away again.

I should be a sports psychologist, y'know......

[SameerP]

Originally Posted by Robert What does "mentally weak" mean Sameer? That he has a low IQ? What has happened is: - he got out to the Bangla SLAs a few times when out of form - the English press decided to attack him fo it - now he is overthinking when an SLA comes on - that takes him out of The Zone - that mucks up his foot movement and he gets out He just needs something simple to get him back into the Zone, like maybe a straight six and he will be away again. I should be a sports psychologist, y'know......

No Mentally weak means he is not mentally strong like let's say Laxman or Steve waugh. He lets things off the field affect his batting that's what I mean by mentally weak, still one of the best batsman in recent times

[jeetu]

2010 was KP worst test year but he still manage to average over 40. His average is nearly 40 this year. Even in bad patch he's hanging in with decent contribution.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by SameerP No Mentally weak means he is not mentally strong like let's say Laxman or Steve waugh. He lets things off the field affect his batting that's what I mean by mentally weak, still one of the best batsman in recent times

So Laxman and Steve Waugh can concentrate for longer?

[SameerP]

Originally Posted by Robert So Laxman and Steve Waugh can concentrate for longer?

Maybe Laxman is not the best example, take Steve waugh incident against Ambrose. KP is not mentally strong like that and he will get affected by those incidents, he needs to ignore everything else and just focus on his batting since he lets other things effect him

[Wristy_Shuffler]

That is actually quite surprising but that list coincides heavily with a period of Aussie dominance.

Surely the fact that a lot of their bowlers played 5 games every 18-30 months against one of the greatest batting line-ups in history must have something to do with it.

[1137moiz]

I completely agree here with ads101. A bowling average of 25-29 is equivalent to a batting average in the 40s--very respeccable. Also, it'd help if you posted their averages IN ENGLAND.

England do have a habit of overrating their bowlers and underrating their batsmen.

John Snow (from what little I've seen), Caddick, Gough--in fact most English bowlers are either consistent, or dangerous, but not brilliant. Which is parfaitly fine.

[1137moiz]

Originally Posted by Blitz Having lived here all my life, I know its the whole ''english media'' Its something you won't know. Why? Because you're British. You'd never notice. Its like Pakistani's preaching about Inzi. I would never notice its showing of

+. British understatement is largely mythical as is their self deprecation.

[LethalSami]

like the thread title...

about time POMS are put in their place....

but current bowling line-up is not THAT bad....kinda improving...

but ENG totally sucked during 90's

[W63L35]

Originally Posted by LethalSami but ENG totally sucked during 90's

Their bowling was better than quite a few teams;

[James]

Originally Posted by ads101 England have always overrated their bowling attack and underrated their batting

Swann is a good bowler and I have high hopes for Anderson, Tremlett and Bresnan, but I agree with this. On a side note, England rarely produce truly outstanding players for some reason. I think Flintoff probably came the closest to this in my lifetime but his standing (rightly) remains questionable. The best England sides I've seen have actually been built on hard work, team spirit and collective high performance as opposed to individual brilliance.

[DramaHai]

I really expect England to steam roll India

[ShaunMarshRules]

Originally Posted by Whippy Swann is a good bowler and I have high hopes for Anderson, Tremlett and Bresnan, but I agree with this. On a side note, England rarely produce truly outstanding players for some reason. I think Flintoff probably came the closest to this in my lifetime but his standing (rightly) remains questionable. The best England sides I've seen have actually been built on hard work, team spirit and collective high performance as opposed to individual brilliance.

I would call Cook outstanding, perhaps even a potential great. If one looks at Cook's stats for his age, and that he comes in against the new ball, he's got a better claim for greatness than KP, despite media hype. And I say this as a KP fan. Cook man averages 49, with 18 hundreds at the age of 26! He'll probably get at least 30 test hundreds if he continues to a ripe age, maybe even 40 if he can maintain Tendulkaresque consistency.

KP is 4 years older than Cook, has 1 less hundred (despite having played 6 more matches), averages less and doesn't have to face the new ball.

The point for me is not to make KP vs Cook comparisons, but that England do indeed underhype some of their batsmen.

[MC]

Considering England on the whole is often seen as an average team with hit or miss bowling and batting line up, so them not having world best batting or bowling individuals or department isn't seen as a big deal as you just see them as a unit and both department equals out each other.

With India their bowling so much attention because there's like an earth and sky difference between their batting and bowling line up. In one innings you'd see all their great batsmen scoring historic 50's and 100's and in next innings you'd see opposition scoring the same amount of runs with ease.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Whippy The best England sides I've seen have actually been built on hard work, team spirit and collective high performance as opposed to individual brilliance.

Aye. It helps to have three or four effective bowlers at once too! Now we have Jimmy / Trem / Bres? / Swann we can do some damage here and there, and we have stronger batting than in about 20 years.

[CoolSERAZ]

simon jones was probably the closest who came to being a great bowler in the recent past. unfortunately his fragile body let him down.

[what ho]

No, Coolseraz. He wasn't the closest to being a great bowler. And I say it as an Englishman and a fan of Sijo.

[Blitz]

Originally Posted by CoolSERAZ simon jones was probably the closest who came to being a great bowler in the recent past. unfortunately his fragile body let him down.

Agreed. I think he had the POTENTIAL to be a great bowler. 90 MPH reverse swinging bowler. He had class about him.

Shame about his fitness. Injured for like 5 years!

[Namak_Halaal]

Interesting thread.

I use to wonder why teams relish the opportunity to beat England, and the only reason I have come up with is the inherent resentment towards the English. Why? Probably because the English have invented more sports than any other nation and introduced such sports through colonial rule. India, Pakistan, Australia, West Indies to name a few.

Part of me feels England perform poorly because there is very little English in team. Despite playing for one team, there remains and underlying difference between race, colour, creed, and I think this contributes to the lack of unity somewhat.

There’s not enough interest in cricket among youngsters in the UK either despite the fact Cricket is the national sport. Unlike the subcontinent where kids play in the streets day and night, here there’s next to no sporting infrastructure let alone a nearby shop to buy insulation tape!

The weather is a contributing factor too. Cricket gains popularity during the summer for a few months, but then the enthusiasm dies down when the premier season starts, though I have noticed that Asians tend to play more off season.

Specifically related to bowling (and batting for that matter), England have always played textbook orthodox cricket, and this has always been their weakness because it makes them predictable. Playing textbook is fine when your opposition are catching up, but once they’ve caught on, it’s time to switch to unorthodox plays; there is no element of surprise in the English team.

Despite the above, nothing was more satisfying than watching England whoop Aussies in the Ashes series’ of late, it wasn’t easy, but like England, Aussies were too predictable and England played on their weakness.

England needs character and variety, and what they have in Swann and Cook (personally) is the potential to rip through the Indian line-up like a hot knife through butter this summer.