The Shoaib Malik 'Support' Thread

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by saeed-sohail Soon I will start an Anwaar support thread that he richly deserves.

serious?

No, you joking

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by ahmed16 What is the point of this thread, its a thread to "support" Malik, yet all it consists of is Malik getting shitted upon by every tom, dick and harry. Why is it even still called the Malik "support" thread.

You look like Tom.

[iafzal]

Originally Posted by saeed-sohail Soon I will start an Anwaar support thread that he richly deserves.

[iafzal]

Originally Posted by Anwaar By the way YK has failed to cross 25 45%+, and 35 55%+ of the times, SM 60%+ and Zaheer Abbas 63%+ (Zaheer got avg of 44+ while Malik has 36+ and that reflects in the respective CoV) The idea that I am forwarding is you put it in (2) but you think its not possible to have such numbers. On the other hand, I am for such values, and in result can determine safe, low risk, high risk zones. And then able to compare players with high avg low reliability with a player of low avg high reliability from risk minimization perspective.

I think we should end this discussion here.
You have quoted
YK has failed to cross ....35 55%+ of the times, SM 60%+ and Zaheer Abbas 63%+

The above facts prove two things:
1. YK will have a better probability of scoring above 35
2. Based on the 14 runs higher avg of YK, he is much more likely to score high score when ever he crosses 35.

I think it is now easy to conclude despite lower SD of SM he is less reliable than YK terms of cricket since he will score less times above 35 and when he does he will not score a very high score otherwise his avg would have been better.

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by iafzal I think we should end this discussion here. You have quoted YK has failed to cross ....35 55%+ of the times, SM 60%+ and Zaheer Abbas 63%+ The above facts prove two things: 1. YK will have a better probability of scoring above 35 2. Based on the 14 runs higher avg of YK, he is much more likely to score high score when ever he crosses 35. I think it is now easy to conclude despite lower SD of SM he is less reliable than YK terms of cricket since he will score less times above 35 and when he does he will not score a very high score otherwise his avg would have been better.

Forget YK for a while, compare SM with Zaheer. Zaheer got 8 avg run advantage on SM, but he's 2% riskier than SM to harm team's chances.
(Here we are assuming that 35 run by each top order player would win/save team a match. Winning by one run, 500 runs or by an innings got same value here).

You may disagree with number 35, it could be "X", but once a player gets X with high reliability then team doesn't need higher scores. Those additional runs may contribute to player's personal records and milestones but you can't double-win a match.

To your satisfaction, I never presented this data set to pick SM over YK as difference of their CoV is not big enough at the moment.

[taaveez]

Originally Posted by Anwaar On the other hand, I am for such values, and in result can determine safe, low risk, high risk zones. And then able to compare players with high avg low reliability with a player of low avg high reliability from risk minimization perspective.

I think the point you are trying to put forth is that since SM can be expected to score 36 more consistently he has a place in the team for his 36. The logical question you need to answer then is whether 36 is enough.

It's kind of like saying Pakistan, on average, and in their current setting, are very consistent in losing a match, and you can minimize the risk of an unexpected outcome by having Pakistan play (for example, against Australia). I'm questioning whether the "volatility risk" minimized actually helped you at all. Returning to the subjective discussion, you should end up losing a game whether with three ducks or with three 36's, but you might win one with 200. And so forth.

[tanzeel]

I have never seen more ridiculous stats being thrown around. Seriously? Percentage number of times a batsman has crosses 35? Does anyone even care about the existence of such an absolutely pointless stat?

[iafzal]

Originally Posted by Anwaar Forget YK for a while, compare SM with Zaheer. Zaheer got 8 avg run advantage on SM, but he's 2% riskier than SM to harm team's chances. (Here we are assuming that 35 run by each top order player would win/save team a match. Winning by one run, 500 runs or by an innings got same value here). You may disagree with number 35, it could be "X", but once a player gets X with high reliability then team doesn't need higher scores. Those additional runs may contribute to player's personal records and milestones but you can't double-win a match. To your satisfaction, I never presented this data set to pick SM over YK as difference of their CoV is not big enough at the moment.

True but let me tell you if 35 is the score someone who is your best batsman score reliably then this team will not win much. You need big time player who may fail but when they do score (at a good ratio) then they are match winner. A person with avg of 35 and low SD is no match winner and we should get rid of this medicore state of mind and players.

[LG]

Originally Posted by Anwaar If he doesn't then he will get a low CoV, won't he, cause of High mean and low SD? If you score big, wont it change your mean in upward? and If you want to keep average constant you would need low scores to counter big score to have the same CoV. If thats not the case then that player would have a high average and a low CoV. In that case you can pick that player without doubt. Whats so complex?

If the guy is averaging 50, hasn't the average already had an upward movement?? The big scores doesn't cause the SD and average to change by the same amount. So unless you're as consistent with big scores as Bradman, your CoV will be lower than a batsman who averages around 35, and consistently scores around his average. Heck, even Bradman is on 56 on that list. Does that mean he was inconsistent?

It's easier for a batsman who averages around 35 to score consistently around his average, than it is for someone who averages around 50.

You are only drawing one conclusion from Malik's relatively low CoV, and ignoring any other conclusions that can be made.

[Amjid Javed]

Im looking forward to seeing malik sitting on balcony and carrying drinks

[Amjid Javed]

Skipping practice, again showing poor attitude.

Hope he gets sent home in disgrace!

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by tanzeel I have never seen more ridiculous stats being thrown around. Seriously? Percentage number of times a batsman has crosses 35? Does anyone even care about the existence of such an absolutely pointless stat?

Ok.

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by Amjid Javed Im looking forward to seeing malik sitting on balcony and carrying drinks

There is a better option, use him as a substitute and put him at in slips

[Oxy]

I would rather him be practicing in the nets - tennis nets for mixed doubles with Saarnia

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by LG If the guy is averaging 50, hasn't the average already had an upward movement?? The big scores doesn't cause the SD and average to change by the same amount. So unless you're as consistent with big scores as Bradman, your CoV will be lower than a batsman who averages around 35, and consistently scores around his average. Heck, even Bradman is on 56 on that list. Does that mean he was inconsistent? It's easier for a batsman who averages around 35 to score consistently around his average, than it is for someone who averages around 50. You are only drawing one conclusion from Malik's relatively low CoV, and ignoring any other conclusions that can be made.

I suppose you mean higher.

Re: "It's easier for a batsman who averages around 35 to score consistently around his average, than it is for someone who averages around 50"
Then I happen to disagree:
this guy has avg of 60 with v.v.low CoV:
http://www.cricinfo.com/england/cont...yer/20413.html

few more name with High Avg and Low CoV:
Katich
Hobbs
Barrington
Kallis


and here are few players with Low average and High CoV:
Mohsin
Mudassar
Gatting
Flower
Ijaz
Whittal


Re: "Heck, even Bradman is on 56 on that list. Does that mean he was inconsistent"

Ranking isn't important. Focus on the value instead that shows him consistent. (ironically his value is pretty similar to SM's )


Re: "You are only drawing one conclusion from Malik's relatively low CoV, and ignoring any other conclusions that can be made"

I am not (i hope). Please read the other posts on the topic.

now in your own words, low CoV means you get what you see.
so for high CoV means you don't get what you see.

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by iafzal True but let me tell you if 35 is the score someone who is your best batsman score reliably then this team will not win much. You need big time player who may fail but when they do score (at a good ratio) then they are match winner. A person with avg of 35 and low SD is no match winner and we should get rid of this medicore state of mind and players.

We are not in same wave-length as my argument is for match-winning team and not match-winning player who play big innings few times and fails most of time. Too much risk involved.

By the way requirement for winning would be 38.86 with high reliability.

And this will ensure team high win ratio than that you can ever hope from high average less reliable match winners.

[Amir]

Originally Posted by Anwaar We are not in same wave-length as my argument is for match-winning team and not match-winning player who play big innings few times and fails most of time. Too much risk involved.

Anwaar bro, sorry to hear about Malik. I know you must be devastated and must be a difficult time for you. Just so you know, you have a shoulder to lean on. Hope you feel better.

Sincerely,

Amir

[saeed-sohail]

Originally Posted by Amir Anwaar bro, sorry to hear about Malik. I know you must be devastated and must be a difficult time for you. Just so you know, you have a shoulder to lean on. Hope you feel better. Sincerely, Amir

Thats harsh.

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by Amir Anwaar bro, sorry to hear about Malik. I know you must be devastated and must be a difficult time for you. Just so you know, you have a shoulder to lean on. Hope you feel better. Sincerely, Amir

Yes It was a surprise and I am bit disappointed.
Now I hope he calls Inzi to set a tele-conf with YK and MoYo to do something about this new situation.

[LG]

Originally Posted by Anwaar I suppose you mean higher.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

Originally Posted by Anwaar Re: "It's easier for a batsman who averages around 35 to score consistently around his average, than it is for someone who averages around 50" Then I happen to disagree: this guy has avg of 60 with v.v.low CoV: http://www.cricinfo.com/england/cont...yer/20413.html few more name with High Avg and Low CoV: Katich Hobbs Barrington Kallis and here are few players with Low average and High CoV: Mohsin Mudassar Gatting Flower Ijaz Whittal

Do you disagree that it's easier for a batsman who average's 35 to score around his average than it is for a batsman who averages 50????!!! I'm sure you didn't mean that. It would surely be easier.

And the example you gave, Herbert Sutcliffe, is one of the greatest batsmen of all time, some argue second only to Bradman. He is known for his consistently significant scores opening the batting in difficult conditions, not for consistently scoring 30s (unlike Malik). And again, if you look at his scores, he scored mostly around his average (around 60), a few low scores, and a good number of high scores, but only a couple of huge scores, and even they weren't above 200. So this proves my point about lack of really big scores and low CoV, to some extent.

And those other names of batsmen who had high average and low CoV are all of great batsmen who consistently scored well, 30s. If we were talking about such a batsman, I wouldn't even be arguing with you.

Originally Posted by Anwaar Re: "Heck, even Bradman is on 56 on that list. Does that mean he was inconsistent" Ranking isn't important. Focus on the value instead that shows him consistent. (ironically his value is pretty similar to SM's )

Point taken, and accepted. But let's keep the comparisons between SM and Bradman till SM averages over 50 at least.

Originally Posted by Anwaar Re: "You are only drawing one conclusion from Malik's relatively low CoV, and ignoring any other conclusions that can be made" I am not (i hope). Please read the other posts on the topic.

Maybe, I'm only reading some of your posts, but I don't want to waste time reading this whole thread.

What I understood from the posts I read are that you are trying to prove that Malik is consistent. And in my view, scoring nice little 20s and 30s and not going on to score big is not Test class. You are happily ignoring the fact that Malik lacks big scores. And by saying again and again, that you would prefer a batsman who consistently scores around 35 over someone who averages over 50 and has a relatively high CoV, I thing you're suggesting you'd pick SM over YK. (I hope I'm wrong).

[Black Zero]

^^^
- You haven't commented on players with low average (at around 30 ) but with high CoV.
- High average players get higher cushion than a low average players get to have a same CoV. So no disadvantage/disadvantage of having high or low average as SD is divided by average.
- In other posts I have suggested that if a player reaches a cutoff value (X) with a very high reliability (v low CoV) then he should be preferred over a high averaged with v.low Reliability player to minimize the risks. (before I thought that X=35+-2, but its around ~ 38.82)
- Players with average of around 50 with very high CoV are harmful to teams' winning chances overall as you don't get, what you see (50). (copied from another post) "By the way YK has failed to cross 25 45%+, and 35 55%+ of the times, SM 60%+ and Zaheer Abbas 63%+ (Zaheer got avg of 44+ while Malik has 36+ and that reflects in the respective CoV)"
- If SM lowers his CoV by improving his average couple of points then there is strong case of his selection over YK (academically only, as both are out).

[Black Zero]

Another Reason to Support Malik.

Best ODI captain Pakistan ever had.

[MalikMohsin]

This thread is still going on? Malik is not even playing. We knew Pakistan was going to lose even with presence of Yousuf/Younus, Pakistan was whitewashed by Australia many times.
We had to groom youngsters and that was the right decision PCB has made. Calling Younus / Yousuf is backward move, and that shows the sign of not moving on at all.

And don't you think hating without any reason continue to sound pathetic at all? You know what people say when they don't have their lives, and therefore, spend 24 hours of hating him does sound being obsessive?

[taaveez]

Originally Posted by Anwaar Another Reason to Support Malik. Best ODI captain Pakistan ever had.

Malik's ODI W/L ratio against the teams that Imran captained (Aus, Ind, WI, Eng, SL, NZ, SA): 11/23 = 48%.

One of the worst ODI captains.

[Black Zero]

Yes its still going on.
I try to contribute to it on weekends.
Have presented so many data sets to clear misconceptions.

RE: Hatred/Liking for some player on masses basis:

Groups breed conformity @ http://www.spring.org.uk/2009/07/10-...ern-groups.php

[taaveez]

Originally Posted by MalikMohsin We had to groom youngsters and that was the right decision PCB has made. Calling Younus / Yousuf is backward move, and that shows the sign of not moving on at all.

So, tell me something. Have we negotiated a deal with the Aussies to let us steal the "forward" players from their domestic system, or has Obama signed up to invest in our domestic system such that the next 3 on the list are jr Miandad, jr Imran, and jr Wasim?

[MalikMohsin]

^

You gotta take break. I mean some will let the hatred go ever just like Shahid Khan Afridi can not mature with his batting in Test. I am afraid i have to use this kind of comparison. Let them say whatever they want, but basically, they were trying to get inside your brain just to annoy you. That's why i didn't bother to discuss with them. You shouldn't . They will stop? Nevaaa

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by taaveez Malik's ODI W/L ratio against the teams that Imran captained (Aus, Ind, WI, Eng, SL, NZ, SA): 11/23 = 48%. One of the worst ODI captains.

Fortunately, pick n choose is not permitted in an educational debate.
You are not in "Panchayat", where you can spin the facts by introducing qualifications.


Career vs Career comparison.


Malik is best
and wasim is at second spot.

Imran is not the worst, he's third best.

[MalikMohsin]

Originally Posted by taaveez So, tell me something. Have we negotiated a deal with the Aussies to let us steal the "forward" players from their domestic system, or has Obama signed up to invest in our domestic system such that the next 3 on the list are jr Miandad, jr Imran, and jr Wasim?

Ask yourself, what make you think how Younus and Yousuf debuted? They replaced our former reliable middle order batsmen, and were groomed for the future. PCB had to take risk, but it paid off, and now, we must do the same with youngsters to groom them in the future. Cricket doesn't begin and stop with the same cricketer.

[taaveez]

Originally Posted by Anwaar Fortunately, pick n choose is not permitted in an educational debate. You are not in "Panchayat", where you can spin the facts by introducing qualifications. Career vs Career comparison. Malik is best and wasim is at second spot. Imran is not the worst, he's third best.

I'm sorry but I care the least about the manipulated data that you present. I have to compare apples to apples. Happy to stay "uneducated" that way.

Malik is one of the worst Pakistani ODI captains against the teams that Imran captained. Malik's own captaincy stats are decorated with wins over ZIM and BD - even a monkey as a captain could have produced the same results.

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by taaveez I'm sorry but I care the least about the manipulated data that you present. I have to compare apples to apples. Happy to stay "uneducated" that way. Malik is one of the worst Pakistani ODI captains against the teams that Imran captained. Malik's own captaincy stats are decorated with wins over ZIM and BD - even a monkey as a captain could have produced the same results.

I have passed your plea to ICC but they refused to remove the ODI status from those matches.

Not my fault.

You can try directly complaining to ICC about Zim and BD.
Till then Chao.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by taaveez Malik's ODI W/L ratio against the teams that Imran captained (Aus, Ind, WI, Eng, SL, NZ, SA): 11/23 = 48%. One of the worst ODI captains.

YK against the same teams: 8/21 = 38%

[MalikMohsin]

Originally Posted by taaveez I'm sorry but I care the least about the manipulated data that you present. I have to compare apples to apples. Happy to stay "uneducated" that way. Malik is one of the worst Pakistani ODI captains against the teams that Imran captained. Malik's own captaincy stats are decorated with wins over ZIM and BD - even a monkey as a captain could have produced the same results.

Pakistan lost to Bangladesh in WC 99.
Pakistan lost to Ireland in WC 07
Pakistan lost to Zimbabwe at home - 97 or 98? Not sure


Sometimes, it's better not to devalue any contribution from the team against any team. Even England lost to Bangladesh in second ODI.

[taaveez]

Originally Posted by Big Mac YK against the same teams: 8/21 = 38%

And I assume this is in response to:

One of the worst ODI captains.

?

[taaveez]

Originally Posted by MalikMohsin Pakistan lost to Bangladesh in WC 99. Pakistan lost to Ireland in WC 07 Pakistan lost to Zimbabwe at home - 97 or 98? Not sure Sometimes, it's better not to devalue any contribution from the team against any team. Even England lost to Bangladesh in second ODI.

Ummm, how does this change the fact that Malik's results are decorated with wins over ZIM and BD?

[taaveez]

Originally Posted by Anwaar I have passed your plea to ICC but they refused to remove the ODI status from those matches.

And I've passed your stats to the PCB Chairman to consider Malik for the ODI captaincy, but the response that came back read something like: isn't this the guy I kicked out of captaincy in 2008 AFTER seeing those ZIM and BD results?

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by MalikMohsin Pakistan lost to Bangladesh in WC 99. Pakistan lost to Ireland in WC 07 Pakistan lost to Zimbabwe at home - 97 or 98? Not sure Sometimes, it's better not to devalue any contribution from the team against any team. Even England lost to Bangladesh in second ODI.

Smart and wise people would brace the truth and accept the challenge.
But here finding escape routes is the ultimate aim of some posters and then start abusing.

Not a very healthy state of mind.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by taaveez And I assume this is in response to: ?

If you're going to compare win/loss records it's only fair to look at how other captains did with similar squads. Shoaib Malik never had the luxury of Wasim/Waqar bowling at the start and end of an innings, he never had Saeed Anwar and Inzi scoring runs for him.

Younis Khan had more or less the same resources that Malik did and performed significantly worse against the same teams, doesn't really help your case that Malik is one of the worst ODI captains we've ever had.

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by taaveez And I've passed your stats to the PCB Chairman to consider Malik for the ODI captaincy, but the response that came back read something like: isn't this the guy I kicked out of captaincy in 2008 AFTER seeing those ZIM and BD results?

Don't trust Butt, I'd suggest.

Butt is the same person, who showed Malik list of "potential" players for T20WC and Malik refused to see.

Butt is the same person who had to bend when Malik exerted little political pressure.

And we have seen Qadir, Qasim, Inti became history in few months time.
YK and MoYo lost captaincy in not very respectable way.

And we know that even when Ijaz and Yawar would be gone, Malik would still be in squad.

Anyway, Malik had categorically refused to become captain few times.

[taaveez]

Originally Posted by Big Mac Younis Khan had more or less the same resources that Malik did and performed significantly worse against the same teams, doesn't really help your case that Malik is one of the worst ODI captains we've ever had.

And YK's case matters here because?

1. The OP is comparing stats across decades. Imran, Wasim, and several others played / captained ODIs under substantially less batting-friendly situations, when bowling attacks among top teams were much more comparable.

2. As previously mentioned, Malik's stats are decorated with wins over BD and ZIM. IK's are not. YK's are not.

3. What part of one of the worst captains ever do you not understand?

[Big Mac]

So in summary:

You don't like Malik and never will no matter what.

Cheers.

[taaveez]

Originally Posted by Anwaar Don't trust Butt, I'd suggest.

No need to trust Butt. Just need to see the end result: (1) Malik stripped of ODI captaincy, (2) Malik dropped from the squad, and (3) Malik passed over even after Afridigate.

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by taaveez And YK's case matters here because? 1. The OP is comparing stats across decades. Imran, Wasim, and several others played / captained ODIs under substantially less batting-friendly situations, when bowling attacks among top teams were much more comparable. 2. As previously mentioned, Malik's stats are decorated with wins over BD and ZIM. IK's are not. YK's are not. 3. What part of one of the worst captains ever do you not understand?

Miandad is also one of the worst?

[Black Zero]

By the way, Imran's record also includes matches against Zim and BD.
Another escape route blocked!





Malik the best ODI captain for Pakistan!!!

[taaveez]

Originally Posted by Anwaar Miandad is also one of the worst?

Looks like it.

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by taaveez No need to trust Butt. Just need to see the end result: (1) Malik stripped of ODI captaincy, (2) Malik dropped from the squad, and (3) Malik passed over even after Afridigate.

Don't think chronology is comprehensive.

[taaveez]

Originally Posted by Anwaar By the way, Imran's record also includes matches against Zim and BD. Another escape route blocked!

Desperate attempts at the argument now, eh?

Imran's W/L ratio against top teams, excl. ZIM and BD: 1.23
Malik's W/L ratio against top teams, excl. ZIM and BD: 0.92

[Big Mac]

So let me get this straight, he's one of the worst ODI captains we've ever had because he's not Imran?

[MalikMohsin]

Originally Posted by taaveez Desperate attempts at the argument now, eh? Imran's W/L ratio against top teams, excl. ZIM and BD: 1.23 Malik's W/L ratio against top teams, excl. ZIM and BD: 0.92

It's not that bad for Malik considering the fact that Imran Khan is legend with the best team to lead, and Malik isn't.

[Couch Cricketer]

Originally Posted by taaveez Desperate attempts at the argument now, eh? Imran's W/L ratio against top teams, excl. ZIM and BD: 1.23 Malik's W/L ratio against top teams, excl. ZIM and BD: 0.92

In Imran time SL team was what Bangladesh\Zim are today

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by taaveez Desperate attempts at the argument now, eh? Imran's W/L ratio against top teams, excl. ZIM and BD: 1.23 Malik's W/L ratio against top teams, excl. ZIM and BD: 0.92

desperate, that witty.

Its career vs career comparison.

I will include your concerns about Zim and BD as soon ICC nullify those matches that played against BD and Zim. Fair?

Till then, we can't do much as its official data. We can not change based on someone's liking or disliking.



Q: What is the Win /Loss ratio of Imran?
A: 54% Second Division

Q: Who got the best Win/Loss ration for Pakistan in ODI?
A: Malik, and he is the only one who got FIRST Division.

[insaaniyat]

All pakistani captain should know by now, dno't drop Malik from playing X1.

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by Couch Cricketer In Imran time SL team was what Bangladesh\Zim are today

Thats true, but we can't do much as SL was given status by ICC.
Not in Imran's hand.

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by insaaniyat All pakistani captain should know by now, dno't drop Malik from playing X1.

Yes, but for that, there is a very different reason

As I knew that Malik wasn't picked for 1st test. I am on record that "Afridi's days are numbered"

I was thinking about couple of months, but he couldn't survive a week

[taaveez]

Originally Posted by Big Mac So let me get this straight, he's one of the worst ODI captains we've ever had because he's not Imran?

Originally Posted by MalikMohsin It's not that bad for Malik considering the fact that Imran Khan is legend with the best team to lead, and Malik isn't.

Given that people here are not going to move a limb to look stats up themselves, here goes:

ODI W/L Ratios Against Aus, WI, Ind, SA, Eng, NZ, and SL:

Wasim Akram: 1.27
Imran Khan: 1.23
Inzamam: 1.15
Waqar: 1.04
Malik: 0.92
Miandad: 0.78

The universe of captains is what Anwaar used. I'm sure there are others compared to which Malik has done better on this metric. But, let's keep the argument within the original premise.

[taaveez]

Originally Posted by Anwaar desperate, that witty. Its career vs career comparison. I will include your concerns about Zim and BD as soon ICC nullify those matches that played against BD and Zim. Fair? Till then, we can't do much as its official data. We can not change based on someone's liking or disliking. Q: What is the Win /Loss ratio of Imran? A: 54% Second Division Q: Who got the best Win/Loss ration for Pakistan in ODI? A: Malik, and he is the only one who got FIRST Division.

Like I said, Malik can decorate this data in a frame in his bedroom, but since it isn't winning him an ODI captaincy let alone a place in the squad, the use of it is probably limited to breaking Sania down on moody evenings.

Q: Of the 6 presented, who are the worst ODI captains excl. matches against minnows?
A: Malik and Miandad.

Thank you.

[taaveez]

Originally Posted by Couch Cricketer In Imran time SL team was what Bangladesh\Zim are today

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe prove it.

[Couch Cricketer]

Originally Posted by taaveez Given that people here are not going to move a limb to look stats up themselves, here goes: ODI W/L Ratios Against Aus, WI, Ind, SA, Eng, NZ, and SL: Wasim Akram: 1.27 Imran Khan: 1.23 Inzamam: 1.15 Waqar: 1.04 Malik: 0.92 Miandad: 0.78 The universe of captains is what Anwaar used. I'm sure there are others compared to which Malik has done better on this metric. But, let's keep the argument within the original premise.

And he was followed by YK, MY & Afridi
whose ratios are 0.4 0.2 0.2

[taaveez]

Originally Posted by Couch Cricketer And he was followed by YK, MY & Afridi whose ratios are 0.4 0.2 0.2

Shrug. Tell it to Anwaar to include in his slides. He needs it more than I do.

[Couch Cricketer]

oh sorry afridi is 0.25 not .2

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by taaveez Like I said, [U]Malik can decorate this data in a frame in his bedroom, but since it isn't winning him an ODI captaincy[/U] let alone a place in the squad, Thank you.

Do you think we have some agenda to forward these data set?

3rd highest average as an openers.... Is he looking for an opener spot?
Best Pakistani Captain....Is he wants to become captain again?

If you think so, then you are mistaken.

Rest we already addressed, we can't change official data.

No Problem

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by Couch Cricketer And he was followed by YK, MY & Afridi whose ratios are 0.4 0.2 0.2

Thanks...
We need a second list for these captains

[taaveez]

Originally Posted by Anwaar Do you think we have some agenda to forward these data set?

Do you think I have some agenda to rid ZIM and BD of the ODI status? If yes, you are mistaken.

[taaveez]

Originally Posted by Anwaar Rest we already addressed, we can't change official data.

Sorry, the use of that official data has no utility. Other than creating slides.

Unless you clean it up first to compare apples to apples. Then, a use might be to convince others of your hypothesis.

[Black Zero]

Collation of awareness has won quite a few battles against darkness of ignorance.
For a quick review:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...&postcount=216
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...&postcount=222
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[ads101]

Originally Posted by Anwaar desperate, that witty. Its career vs career comparison. I will include your concerns about Zim and BD as soon ICC nullify those matches that played against BD and Zim. Fair? Till then, we can't do much as its official data. We can not change based on someone's liking or disliking. Q: What is the Win /Loss ratio of Imran? A: 54% Second Division Q: Who got the best Win/Loss ration for Pakistan in ODI? A: Malik, and he is the only one who got FIRST Division.

Could someone tell me why exactly malik was dropped from captaincy. This is a genuine question, I don't actually remember.

Malik was a good ODI and T20 captain in my opinion. Even under afridi's captaincy, he was giving tips to afridi and helping him. If he had been given longer time, his captaincy would have only improved. Pakistan has a tendency of going against players after one or two failures. Malik never lost a series really badly, all series were either a tight loss or a win. You don't drop a person from captaincy if they're performing well.

Only issue is that Malik doesn't deserve a spot in the test line up with his current batting. His average is a low 36, which itself is boosted by a couple of not outs. He has made two centuries, on the same flat pitches in Sri Lanka. When he has come to bat, most times it has been low (mostly at 6) which is an easier position to bat than further up the order (Although one of his centuries was at an opener granted).

For a senior batsman it does him no favours batting at six. The PCB need to play him up the order if they want to make full use of him and allow him to improve and live up to the title of a senior batsman in the team. I think position at no.4 should be ideal. Allow the debutant to take his place at no.6, and play under less pressure.

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by ads101 Could someone tell me why exactly malik was dropped from captaincy. This is a genuine question, I don't actually remember. Malik was a good ODI and T20 captain in my opinion. Even under afridi's captaincy, he was giving tips to afridi and helping him. If he had been given longer time, his captaincy would have only improved. Pakistan has a tendency of going against players after one or two failures. Malik never lost a series really badly, all series were either a tight loss or a win. You don't drop a person from captaincy if they're performing well. Only issue is that Malik doesn't deserve a spot in the test line up with his current batting. His average is a low 36, which itself is boosted by a couple of not outs. He has made two centuries, on the same flat pitches in Sri Lanka. When he has come to bat, most times it has been low (mostly at 6) which is an easier position to bat than further up the order (Although one of his centuries was at an opener granted). For a senior batsman it does him no favours batting at six. The PCB need to play him up the order if they want to make full use of him and allow him to improve and live up to the title of a senior batsman in the team. I think position at no.4 should be ideal. Allow the debutant to take his place at no.6, and play under less pressure.

- Political spectrum changed in Pakistan.
- Mush Resigned, Naseem resigned. Butt Came.
- Lawson Sacked.
- Yawer Saeed, Inti, Bari plus 8/9 players made an alliance against Malik.
- Labeled Malik a loner and Sacked him in favor of YK.

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by ads101 Could someone tell me why exactly malik was dropped from captaincy. This is a genuine question, I don't actually remember. Malik was a good ODI and T20 captain in my opinion. Even under afridi's captaincy, he was giving tips to afridi and helping him. If he had been given longer time, his captaincy would have only improved. Pakistan has a tendency of going against players after one or two failures. Malik never lost a series really badly, all series were either a tight loss or a win. You don't drop a person from captaincy if they're performing well. Only issue is that Malik doesn't deserve a spot in the test line up with his current batting. His average is a low 36, which itself is boosted by a couple of not outs. He has made two centuries, on the same flat pitches in Sri Lanka. When he has come to bat, most times it has been low (mostly at 6) which is an easier position to bat than further up the order (Although one of his centuries was at an opener granted). For a senior batsman it does him no favours batting at six. The PCB need to play him up the order if they want to make full use of him and allow him to improve and live up to the title of a senior batsman in the team. I think position at no.4 should be ideal. Allow the debutant to take his place at no.6, and play under less pressure.

Malik is the captain of world's best team of any sport!
Sailkot Stallion, hasn't lost a single T20 match in last 5 years!!!!!

[ads101]

Originally Posted by Anwaar Malik is the captain of world's best team of any sport! Sailkot Stallion, hasn't lost a single T20 match in last 5 years!!!!!

Do you think malik deserves a test spot though and why?

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by ads101 Only issue is that Malik doesn't deserve a spot in the test line up with his current batting. His average is a low 36, which itself is boosted by a couple of not outs. He has made two centuries, on the same flat pitches in Sri Lanka. When he has come to bat, most times it has been low (mostly at 6) which is an easier position to bat than further up the order (Although one of his centuries was at an opener granted).

If you browse up and see the post about CoV, he got very low CoV that proves that his average is not "boosted"

That data is based on runs per innings (to counter Not Out effect).


Re: Opener, he played 25% of times as an opener and he is third highest averaged opener for Pakistan. Browse couple of pages and you will get the stats.

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by ads101 Do you think malik deserves a test spot though and why?

Go through #705, there are lot of arguments and their rebuttals. You may find something that satisfy you.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by ads101 Could someone tell me why exactly malik was dropped from captaincy. This is a genuine question, I don't actually remember.

Got absolutely hammered by Sri Lanka in an ODI and enough time had passed for people to forget how Younis Khan had bottled it after Inzi's retirement for people to think YK would be a good replacement.

PCB did what they do best and commissioned a report to find an easy scapegoat for one heavy defeat instead of searching for ways to improve the team in the long term.

[ads101]

Originally Posted by Big Mac Got absolutely hammered by Sri Lanka in an ODI and enough time had passed for people to forget how Younis Khan had bottled it after Inzi's retirement for people to think YK would be a good replacement. PCB did what they do best and commissioned a report to find an easy scapegoat for one heavy defeat instead of searching for ways to improve the team in the long term.

but it was one odi wasn't it? The final score was 3-2, so he must have done something right to have won 2. Dropping him as captain after one bad game is ridiculous. Plus a pakistan batting collapse is rarely the fault of a captain.

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by ads101 but it was one odi wasn't it? The final score was 3-2, so he must have done something right to have won 2. Dropping him as captain after one bad game is ridiculous. Plus a pakistan batting collapse is rarely the fault of a captain.

http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/385749.html
http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/385750.html
http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/385751.html

Pakistan won first one, lost 2nd and 3rd

Please have a look at match 2 and 3.

[ads101]

Originally Posted by Anwaar If you browse up and see the post about CoV, he got very low CoV that proves that his average is not "boosted" That data is based on runs per innings (to counter Not Out effect). Re: Opener, he played 25% of times as an opener and he is third highest averaged opener for Pakistan. Browse couple of pages and you will get the stats.

Then he should play as an opener really.

At the moment, if he is drafted into the team, he is most likely to bat at 6 (or perhaps 7). HE averages 34.47 at 6 and 24.28 at 7. Obviously playing down the order isn't working for him. In fact why did he ever stop playing as an opener? His last test as an opener, he scored 148 not out. Don't fix it if it ain't broken?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by ads101 Dropping him as captain after one bad game is ridiculous. Plus a pakistan batting collapse is rarely the fault of a captain.

You should know how things work by now.

Whether or not a collapse is the fault of a captain depends strictly on the number of friends he has in the media.

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by ads101 Then he should play as an opener really. At the moment, if he is drafted into the team, he is most likely to bat at 6 (or perhaps 7). HE averages 34.47 at 6 and 24.28 at 7. Obviously playing down the order isn't working for him. In fact why did he ever stop playing as an opener? His last test as an opener, he scored 148 not out. Don't fix it if it ain't broken?

Its more to do with Politics and comfort zone.
Openers are always endangered species, always a series away from extinction, so no wanna take that risk.

[ads101]

Originally Posted by Anwaar http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/385749.html http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/385750.html http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/385751.html Pakistan won first one, lost 2nd and 3rd Please have a look at match 2 and 3.

so it was 2-1. Got confused to the series where he won 3-2 sorry.

In fact the team he had to play is a much worse bowling team than now (no ajmal, afridi's got more effective as of late, no aamer), and the batting side is about the same except for Younis khan (though now we have umar akmal who one would argue is the better ODI player anyway).

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by ads101 so it was 2-1. Got confused to the series where he won 3-2 sorry. In fact the team he had to play is a much worse bowling team than now (no ajmal, afridi's got more effective as of late, no aamer), and the batting side is about the same except for Younis khan (though now we have umar akmal who one would argue is the better ODI player anyway).

Have you noticed string of single digit scores by other players in #2 and #3?

SB, UG and SM were the only contributors.

[ads101]

Originally Posted by Anwaar Have you noticed string of single digit scores by other players in #2 and #3? SB, UG and SM were the only contributors.

well manzoor did do well in the first ODI, which is important to be noted.

Malik's stats are good in ODIs, especially since he's been moved around so much. As an ODI all rounder he's been in the top 5 for many years now. I personally don't doubt malik's usefulness in ODIs or T20s.

Tests are the problem. His record in tests isn't flattering to say the least. If he is a good opener then let him bat at opener (or perhaps even 3). However if he keeps playing at no.6 or 7, I don't see him cementing his test spot at all.